AI or Not

E002 - AI or Not - Kathleen Wisemandle and Pamela Isom

• Pamela Isom • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Welcome to "AI or Not," the podcast where we explore the intersection of digital transformation and real-world wisdom, hosted by the accomplished Pamela Isom. With over 25 years of experience guiding leaders in corporate, public, and private sectors, Pamela, the CEO and Founder of IsAdvice & Consulting LLC, is a veteran in navigating the complex realms of artificial intelligence, innovation, cyber issues, data management, and ethical decision-making. Our AI or Not guest is Kathleen Wisemandle, MSLOC, DOEC, Founder and CEO, Aspire to Grow Coaching & Consulting LLC.

When Kathleen Wisemandle decided to swap her seasoned biopharma expertise for the entrepreneurial roller coaster, she wasn't just making a career switch—she was embracing a life philosophy of no regrets and full-throttle potential. On our show, Kathleen, the powerhouse behind Aspire to Grow Coaching and Consulting LLC, takes us through her journey of sparking change and nurturing leaders in the tech-savvy biotech landscape. Our conversation is a treasure trove for CEOs, nonprofit mavens, and women at the helm, filled with insights on fostering innovation without losing one's authentic self.

Imagine a workspace where human connections flourish, even through screens and across time zones. This episode examines the art of closing the physical gap with digital bridges, as Kathleen and I dissect the importance of camaraderie and open dialogue in remote teams. It's a candid look at how these bonds don't just boost morale but are the lifeline for well-being and job satisfaction. We share our experiences with keeping the human touch alive in a digital era and ponder over the rich implications of connection for personal and organizational health.

Wrapping up, we turn our gaze to the horizon where technology meets personal growth. Here, we celebrate the power of entrepreneurial communities and AI tools like ChatGPT, discussing how they can reshape information channels and support business innovation. Kathleen and I also confront the challenges women still face in attaining equity in the corporate world, emphasizing the fight for diverse perspectives in boardrooms and beyond. Our dialogue is a heartfelt reminder of the role authentic relationships play in overcoming modern hurdles—like the widespread epidemic of loneliness—leaving us grateful for the wisdom shared and the connections made, and eager to continue this enriching exchange.

Pamela Isom:

This podcast is for informational purposes only. Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and not legal advice, neither health, tax, nor professional nor official statements by their organizations. Guest views may not be those of the host. Views may not be those of the host. Hello and welcome to AI or Not, the podcast where business leaders from around the globe share wisdom and insights that are needed now to address issues and guide success in your artificial intelligence and digital transformation journey. Intelligence and digital transformation journey. I'm Pamela Isom, I'm the host of this podcast and we have a special guest with us today Kathleen Wisemandel. Kathleen is founder and CEO of Aspire to Grow Coaching and Consulting LLC. She's a really good friend that I met, that I'm so glad that I met, and I'm going to ask Kathleen to, at this point, tell us a little bit about herself. Kathleen, tell us more about you. Tell me more about your journey. Tell me about your experiences. What made you choose entrepreneurship and whatever else you want to tell us. Tell me about your current role.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Wonderful. Thank you so much, pamela, and it was such a pleasure to meet you and connect with you and, like you said, we became fast friends over a technology through LinkedIn. So I appreciate that I actually am a scientist and an organizational change nerd who spent 30 years in biopharma and a career primarily connected with clinical research of new drug development, and I really was so thankful for that career and spent many years working on new drug development, leading teams, growing teams, finding ways to do that more efficiently. And in my late 40s I went back to school to get my master's to help my teams through some of the changes that were happening in industry and found out that I really loved change management and a lot of social, organizational, behavioral psychology and finished that master's in organizational change and leadership, which led me also to connection of loving to help folks develop in my career, tying that together with the coaching opportunities to help CEOs and nonprofits and women executives just help themselves understand what their opportunities are and potential growth, especially for those folks who really want to continue growing and learning personally and professionally.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

So about two years ago I was working at a really wonderful oncology company, had a fantastic team, had all the things that I should have felt really thankful for and decided I still wanted more. I wanted to see what was out there for me and decided to pivot to create my own company, which was scary, but for some reason I just felt this desire to try something a little scary. Otherwise I was worried I might regret it if I hadn't tried. And so that's when Aspire to Grow came about, and I was just reflecting on the name. Why I chose Aspire to Grow At this time of year was when I was thinking about this two years ago, and it's also the time that I start gardening and I just so enjoy that evolution of watching each stage of a plant maturing or coming about in the springtime and realize that that really is what I'm hoping to help leaders and small startup companies do as well.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

So that's where my name comes from, and I'm a believer in looking at the big picture but also thinking outside of the box a little bit. Busting through the status quo is something I kind of believe in, and not for the sake of it, but just if something is not working. You need to try and be innovative. And so the Startup Biotech founders are really my niche group. I really love what they're about. I love their passion. I'm hoping to help them minimize any inefficiencies or help them by providing my learning to help them navigate that path to getting their drugs in clinic for the first time and through IND submission. So that's a little bit about me.

Pamela Isom:

Oh, that's great. You have an interesting career and you have an interesting journey. I like everything that you said. I'm fascinated with it. But I really like when you pointed out that basically, what I heard you say is you don't let things bind you, that you reach beyond. At least that's what I pulled from one of the things that you said, because I like to innovate and the way that innovation comes about to me is when there are challenges. So whenever there is a challenge, this is going to sound really weird, but you know how you have a piece of paper and there's lines on that paper. I don't use those lines. I can't use them. They seem too confining to me and I just won't use them. I've tried. I can't hold you in.

Pamela Isom:

I love it, for some reason, when you said that, it made me think about how I am, because that's what we have to do. It's like you don't want to be just way, way out there, but if we didn't have the innovators, then where would we be? That's kind of nice to hear you say that you like that and that you embrace that. I think one of the things that I admire about you is I hear you sometimes talk about how we should be our authentic selves, yeah, and I think that that's so important. I think that's one of the things that I really like about you and your focus on entrepreneurship and how you have launched out and started to do the things that you really felt like you should do while you're able to do it, because I heard you say that, too, let's try this out. Let's do do while you're able to do it, because I heard you say that, too, let's try this out. Let's do this while I'm able to do it.

Pamela Isom:

I have a daughter. I'm going to ask you another question, but I just want to share this. I have a daughter who sometimes, when I speak with her, she's an adult now, and sometimes, when I speak with her, I tell her I don't want you to regret that you didn't do something, because me personally, I don't like that feeling. So at least, if there was a decision that you were contemplating talking about business decisions or whatever it may be, but healthy decisions so if there's a decision that you're contemplating whether you should go this path or that path or something, I always tell her you don't want to regret that you didn't do it. So go ahead on and try, if it's going to cost you a little bit more. Go ahead and do it, because if not, you're going to always wonder what would have been. I always tell my daughter that, so that she has peace of mind. So I heard you say that as you were speaking.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

It's so interesting, pamela, because I think our generation was taught to get a good job and be a good corporate citizen or government citizen, and it did, but I felt like there was a piece that was still missing. I'm glad I found it. I was able to find that.

Pamela Isom:

And in our careers we really need that because you have to sometimes step into areas where we aren't sure about but we should try it. So I try to encourage people to at least try it, especially this day and time when technology is at the root of everything. Go ahead and try something. It doesn't even have to be technology oriented, but go ahead and try things out. Oriented, but go ahead and try things out. So can we talk more about your passion around human connectedness, because I heard you point that out a little bit. So can you go further with that?

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Yeah, I really appreciate this because I've always felt the need to bring connection to the teams that I've led. That personal connection was just one way to alleviate some of the stress related to the jobs that we're in and also just to support one another through some of those challenges. And I could see this happening as I went into different roles of trying to create this connection for people and it just adds ease and a little bit of safety to those situations. And the last team that I led I had to actually build during the pandemic, so we were all remotely located and it was still actually even more important then to add that element in places where we weren't together, we hadn't seen each other or, in some cases, met each other in over a year and a half. So we utilize technology to build that and a lot of it was testing whether something like Microsoft Teams, some of the opportunities there, polls or just pulse surveys or things like that could get people to feel connected in a way that you couldn't do through email. So that's when I started really getting a sense of how we could use technology to help us bridge that gap, to create that safety and connection with each other, and I would say we had a really close, connected team. Then it plays out that people ask each other questions they're willing to share, maybe learnings that help the other teams learn more quickly or avoid a mistake when things are moving quickly, and so that safety and connection actually have a value to the business as well.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

So then, when I decided to leave, I was starting to build out the coaching as well as the consulting and just really becoming a little more vulnerable to make new connections in a way I hadn't done so before. And of course, you and I met. I met multiple other people and as we were talking and learning about each other, we learned that everybody was seeking this opportunity for connection, that if we were living in a little more of a remote world, that they might've had family, that they still were connected to and maybe even friends, but they were missing that community connection of people that shared that same purpose or vision that they did personally or professionally. And I just got to thinking how could we make this something where people had an opportunity to opt into this connection through technology, not necessarily based on where they live?

Pamela Isom:

I think that it's important to Be able to relate to others and have an opportunity to relate to others and know that others can relate to you. And at times we were happy to be I'm so happy I don't have to go into the office but then you realize that it started to take its toll because you're seeing each other, sometimes on camera, but you realize that there is that bonding. That is not happening, but we have to live with that because of the digital world in which we live. So the pandemic forced us to put it to action and make it a normal way of life as far as working remotely and the virtual presence and all that. But there's still something there. I like what you said how you use technology to allow people to connect, to allow people to share their learnings, and you build a community where like-minded people could see themselves in each other, then you start to feel connected. Without that, it's just a bunch of people gathered around a screen. That's what was happening during the COVID crisis sometimes is, it's just a bunch of people gathered around the screen, but the connectedness wasn't there, and I think that that's so important. I think technology is good, but I do think that we have a longing for that, and so I think there needs to be more. There needs to be more research in this area and more ways to help people through these types of matters, because I didn't think social connection really mattered until we started going through that.

Pamela Isom:

I'm going to share this one incident that I had. It was during that period of time, and there were so many incidents that happened, but I remember I called someone from work because we were distant workers. But I called someone and I just wanted to talk to someone and she was a co-worker and I told her about how this is making me feel and she just couldn't relate. She couldn't relate to what I was saying, and so I remember saying, ok, well, I probably shouldn't have called her. Yeah, it's simple as that.

Pamela Isom:

But what I did was I held a meeting with my team and I made sure that, with the situation that was going on, that they understood that we're here, that you can reach out, that we are feeling it too, because sometimes isolation can really mount itself, and so I didn't want that to happen. So I made it a point to do that. But my team, as the leader of the team, and I can't tell you how I wish that the same thing had happened and you think that when you're in positions that maybe they don't need it and we do we do so that passion for human connectedness and that you've been talking about, and that also leads to wellbeing. What's your perspective on wellbeing? What's the connection?

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Around the time that I was doing these informational interviews, or just connections, someone introduced me to a book called A Call to Further Becoming. It was about women 50s, 60s, 70s and it was research done on women and how they were feeling. They just wanted to do so much more. They still had so much more to give. Now, not every woman, that age or person even feels that way, but I kept connecting with people that still wanted to do more. But it might be different. It might be slightly different than what they've done. They might be in a period of time where they no longer were responsible for as many activities like the busyness of life that many of us had through our forties, and they just wanted more.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Reading that book made me feel like I wasn't alone. Honestly, that helped my mind realize that I wasn't going crazy, that this was part of my well-being to continue to grow, have curiosity, look for solitude in my life, really have that time for my own mental wellness, finding time to meditate, not feeling lazy about those things. That productivity could look different. I really had to reframe my mind, being in a corporate setting for so long, understanding that taking time to allow myself to rest when I was fatigued mentally was important allow myself to care for my body, and that wasn't anything that corporate didn't allow. But I went from work to family and so I didn't really build that time in for my own wellbeing and I didn't know it then.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

I think I was on autopilot, like so many of us are. But when I had the chance to take a breath and really assess where I wanted to be and what I'd like to do, part of that was my own well-being, and I heard others say the same thing. I need to take time for my self-care and not feel guilty about it. And so, pamela, I think just at this age, it's reframing that for ourselves to understand. What does it look like? It could look different for me than it is for you and, honestly, just modeling that better for my children also.

Pamela Isom:

Yeah, I think that it's important to. I agree with you a thousand percent. I think that it's so important to take care of yourself and try to get to an understanding of what that really means, Because I'm from the era where you do work hard. You work hard and you show people your worth and it's based on some deliverable. Now, I was just steady, doing things over and doing things and cranking it out. I mean, doing a good job, doing a great job, but not taking care of my mental health first and then my physical health. You don't realize it because you get in a zone yes, team, and you get in a zone, one of the things that I try to do and that's why we're talking about this on this show, because the show is AI or not. So one would be like well, what does this have to do with it? Well, it's about the human connectedness and the wellbeing.

Pamela Isom:

So we're dealing with digital transformation and a fast-paced digital era. There is more to thriving in industry and thriving in business. There's more to it than the technology. So there's the people side. So this is so important because I was a good leader, but I would have been better had I taken better care of myself.

Pamela Isom:

Now, how do you do that? That's what you have to tap into is what's going to work for you, and we have to take time out to figure out what that is. It's not some rule that corporations set or that the government sets. It's what do you need to do to take care of you, and if we take the time out to think about that, we become better employees.

Pamela Isom:

We do, yeah, and that's why we're having this conversation, because it should be a well-rounded thing, not just about technology, not just about processes, not just about all those other things, but not just taking care of other people yes, because we fall into that trap too but taking care of ourselves, and it should be okay. It should be okay. It should be okay, and we're going to try to help make sure that it's okay. I love that. I really do love that, yeah, okay. So the next thing is talk about technology. You started talking about it a little bit, but how has it helped you navigate your life and your mission? You did mention that a little bit, but is there anything else you want to add? And while you're doing that, let's talk about some insights that you might have, or perspectives on AI or data or ethics.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Oh, wow, those are all so great, so well. First, I'll say, as an entrepreneur, I think some of the things that helped me get through the day or learn along my path of really finding my niche for my business was becoming part of a collective or a community of entrepreneurs, and that is heavily based with a technology platform, and it's amazing. It's not only a source of information, but it's a source of connection, and one of the ways that this particular community is organized is that each member has to come with an offer that they're willing to give other members, and then they also have an ask of what they might need from other people, and this is called the upside community has been developed in that way. You walk in feeling like it's okay to ask for help, because that's part of almost the commitment to join is asking and then also giving, and so from that I understood how important that was for me to feel safe and trusted in a very safe, confidential space where I couldn't do those things or ask for those things on LinkedIn. So that's how the technology really helped me in that journey of understanding the road to entrepreneurship. And even better was that these entrepreneurs are all in different businesses than I was, but yet we still could cross, pollinate and somebody's idea for a branding company could still apply to me and how I was trying to create a business for myself, and whether it's back office techniques or just suggestions on how to know our worth and ask for the right price for things. And so it created this feeling of, just like I said, safety.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

And so I then set out to create a similar community. I wasn't sure I wanted to do that, but a friend of mine said well, if you don't do it, who will Kathleen? So I was like, oh gosh, okay. So I put together a test run on a community platform called the Journey I know you and I've talked about that where like-minded women or non-binary because I know some folks at this stage in life really don not wanting to be done but wanting to be seen wanted to connect with others who have a shared purpose, wanting to continue to learn and grow and have social impact. So we wanted to also have an impact on others, leave a legacy, help others. So helping was a real big source for us, and our theme was, our motto was we're not done yet, don't put us out to pasture. We're not done, we want to do more. In fact, technology was really important there to help create a framework and a way for us to connect either asynchronously through content or live through these types of meetings, and it's been really fun.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

We do book clubs and now it's not all about business, but we're also there for that trusted, confidential space to connect and be there to support each other, even if we have questions about work like what should I do? I'm in the situation or sharing gardening tips or recipes or health and wellness tips and how I'm using AI. So I'll continue there and then I'll stop and I'll let you ask me more questions is I tend to use ChatGPT for a lot of things to help me understand where I might have a blind spot. So if I'm doing research into a topic or if I have a question about something, I do use ChatGPT AI to help me understand. Is there something I'm missing? So I'm not looking for it to create anything for me, but I might be asking it a question to, say, create an outline or help me understand this, and so just to make sure that, from my own experience or my own lens, I might be missing out on something that another stakeholder might need.

Pamela Isom:

That's good. I think it's a really good use case. A lot of people use AI for research activities and to help with some of the manual work that you would normally have to do to search through this and search through that. I find it to be very helpful for that as well. I think that's one of the good things that the generative AI brings to the table, because I don't think people really understood AI until the prompt-based engineering came about. So I certainly did not.

Pamela Isom:

Yeah, it's like this expression that was just out there, but people didn't really know how to take advantage of it. And, of course, we know that there's more to AI than generative AI, but it's good to see that you're using it to help you with your journey. Good to see that you're using it to help you with your journey Because, again, we have some people who still don't realize that it can be used to help with research and eliminate some of the manual tasks. I'm a fan of AI, as you know, but I'm not a person that says that it is absolutely required or you're not going to be successful. I don't think it's that way today, but I think it's in our best interest to become AI literate.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

I do too, because I think, especially in a scientific world, we might sometimes use our own experiences or bias to discount things or not see certain things that hopefully AI can help us avoid those cognitive biases and errors.

Pamela Isom:

Yeah, that's a whole nother area into AI ethics and governance, but that's an interesting area, I think, for this discussion. I believe that one should understand that the tools are there and they can help us with our journeys, and if we can try to understand how we can use them, it not only helps us with technology, but it also can help us keep sharp because we can get to information faster and we can just locate things.

Pamela Isom:

I remember one time I was having a challenge and putting a challenge before researchers while I was at Energy, one of the challenges was to use AI to search the vast amounts of information that's out there. How long does it take us to go through digital literature? It takes a long time, and it takes a long time to get to what you're really trying to get to, where now you can use the AI tools to tell it what you're looking for, even tell it where to go. Look, you have a whole library of literature. You can tell it to go search this entire library and pull back the information that you see pertaining to a subject matter, and so I teach classes to help people understand how you can use these tools for purposes like that, as well as in your field, like in the field of chemical research, molecular research, things like that. It's really good for those types of purposes.

Pamela Isom:

So one of the things that I want to talk about is women and society. Yes, let's talk more about that. Okay, what are some of our hopes? What are some of your hopes? I'll share some of mine for women and society and coping and thriving. Give me some perspectives.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Wow. Well, I think, through you and I coming together through how Women Lead, I would love for women to have more a seat at the table at some of the corporations and organizations and funding for what they can bring to the table. So I think so often, as you know, with less than 3% of venture funding going to women or diverse founders, we're not really seeing the value that these women can bring to the table and diverse founders as well. So I really love eventually for there to be a day when a woman is not excluded because she's a woman, that she could actually be brought into the conversations and the funding and the C-suites and the boardrooms. And it's frustrating to me that we're living in 2024 and these are still the norms, and that applies to diverse leaders as well, I think.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

For me. I want my daughters and my sons to realize that when it comes to capabilities, gender, race, age to some degree is not limiting and try to have a more open mind about those things when having discussions, including innovation and productivity and belonging. It still boggles my mind a bit that we're still in this space of talking about inclusion at this stage of life, because we know how valuable inclusion and diverse thought how important they are to making better decisions. I think that's it, pamela. I also think at this stage it just would be really interesting to see generationally how the roles of parenting now can be split between both parents and seeing how that might not have a negative impact on the male or the female career and their ability to be productive in the work that they're doing.

Pamela Isom:

Yeah, I agree with you. I am determined to continue to point out that diversity of opinion, diversity of perspectives, is critical to a healthy society, a healthy environment. So I'm just not going to stop Me too. So when I see things that are going on where it's like trying to take us back to some days from the past, I'm determined that, okay, but I'm not going to do that. So I continue to talk about equity how equity is so important, yes, and ethics I'm going to continue to talk about it.

Pamela Isom:

I think that having a diversity of opinion and perspectives when it comes to the boardroom, I'm still trying. I'm not going to stop trying, but I do get annoyed, because I just get annoyed with it. It's like, yeah, right, yes, I get annoyed with it, but I'm not going to stop trying. It just shouldn't be that difficult. It shouldn't be that difficult. It should be based on your capabilities. But that's a different show. I love it. Different show, different show. But diversity is so important.

Pamela Isom:

And when you mentioned AI earlier, diversity of opinion and perspectives is what helps the AI to not inject bias and amplify bias. So if we don't have that, then it's the same people that are building the algorithms and so they have perspectives and those perspectives carry forward as data. That's why it's so important to have the red teams that are diverse and their creativity. It's not that we're opposed to one or the other, it's just that it's good to have the diversity and inclusiveness. Yeah, I don't think we should back down on those perspectives. It's absolutely required unless we want to go back to before civilization. Yeah, that's basically what it would be. So anything in the headlines or laws or an article that you would like to discuss.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Well, I did share an article and one that we had talked about a little bit about the epidemic of loneliness and how important that is right now, and it was by the US Surgeon General, vivek H Murthy, and Dr Murthy also wrote a book called Together the Healing Power of Human Connection in a Sometimes Lon, lonely world that a friend had suggested I read and I really loved it, because the impact of connectedness and we talked about this earlier in this podcast is just so important.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

But it's also important to business, it's also important to the well-being of our world, and I think that was what I really wanted to bring up here. Pamela is like it's one of the things that I'm trying to fight against is the loneliness and feeling alone or feeling like you can't be your true, authentic self in some of the ways that we show up on social media, and those are the things that were really important to me, especially at this stage of life is I don't mind going out on a limb, being that person If I'm able to create a safe space and connectedness that other folks that share a vision with me also want to do, and there are things that we like, things that we go through.

Pamela Isom:

Others go through it. The thing is that sometimes we think that that's not the case I'm the only one, but there are others that are in that situation too. So I think it's always a good idea to navigate out a little bit, to reach out to others that you can relate to or open up. So, for me, I have to open up. I'm a person that I have to feel comfortable opening up because you never know who may be in a similar situation and trying to overcome. I believe that it's okay, so you're doing it for yourself, but you never know who is benefiting from our experiences.

Pamela Isom:

So I liked the article on the epidemic of loneliness. I read it after you gave me a hint that it was something worth reading. I did read through it and I saw things about one in three young adults in America living with mental illness and they share a linkage to health. So there's mental illness and then there's loneliness, and loneliness and isolation leads to heart conditions and all of that. So I think it's so important to pay attention to because, again, in a digital world, it is real easy to be isolated. You would think that that's not the case, but it's real easy to get isolated in your own little world.

Pamela Isom:

It's also really easy to be using this equipment in an unhealthy way. That causes issues, so like with the eyes. So I have to watch my eyes because I can't stare at the screen for too long because it starts to bother, causes issues so like with the eyes. So I have to watch my eyes because I can't stare at the screen for too long because it starts to bother my eyes. I have the dark settings and things like that. I had to figure out what works for me, but when you're busy with work and everything is digital, you don't think about these things. And so we have to think about those kinds of things, because what happens is that causes you to feel lonely because now you don't fit in.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Yes, you don't fit in, you don't belong. You feel like you don't belong.

Pamela Isom:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's good to be mindful. There's a book that I like. It's by, believe it or not, stedman Graham. Oh, okay, and he talks about identity leadership and he speaks to getting to know yourself and leading yourself. First, getting to know yourself so that you can be an effective leader, and it's so important to take time out and pay attention to that and do those things. So I'm glad that you brought that up and I think it's worthwhile to discuss and to look into even further. And if we were to part with words of wisdom for us on the call and for those that are listening later, what would be some parting words of wisdom that you would like to share with everyone?

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Wow, I think for so long I wasn't my true authentic self because I was worried I wouldn't fit in.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

And when I finally had the courage to speak a little bit louder towards my authentic self, I found that I was connecting with those who felt similarly, and I can imagine that's the case for anyone who feels that way, connecting with different people.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

But I find just a little bit of vulnerability in a safe way for me. I was able to connect with folks offline who felt similarly and weren't maybe feeling safe to share that in a forum like LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram. I was able to connect with some folks and create meaningful connection and then also create a community, not a large community, but we've connected in ways that we see each other. We're building trust. We're understanding ourselves better. As you mentioned with Stedman Graham's book is knowing ourselves better is so important? And that self-awareness can be really hard to find if we're not truly giving ourselves time to reflect in solitude and in self-care. So I guess that's a long rambling way to say trust your instincts, try to be as authentic as possible, maybe baby steps, but you might find that there are other people just waiting to know that someone else feels that way.

Pamela Isom:

Okay, and what about energy? What about our energy? Is there anything we can do about how we're spending our time and energy?

Kathleen Wisemandle:

Yeah, I have so many good thoughts on this, pamela. Some of it's that our energy is really about four different things. We have a physical energy, which is our body. We have an emotional energy, which is just how we're taking everything in and understanding how we're feeling. Our mental energy, which we've talked about today, is really about our focus and our ability to do so, and understanding when it's worn out or needs some care. And then our spiritual energy, which really is, could be a greater being, but it really has to do with our purpose for ourselves, and all of those four things live in harmony together. And so understanding when one is low, paying attention to that need and giving it the care it needs.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

There's many other things, like just understanding in a day where you're most energetic and when you're not, and if you have a dip in energy, giving yourself grace during that dip and doing something less strategic or less complex during that time can be a real saver. And, of course, if you get a chance to just walk around is always good too. Yeah, so that's the physical energy, yeah, that's right. Or move around.

Pamela Isom:

If walking is not an ability, moving in some way, yeah well, just as we're closing up here, I just want to say that one of the things that I learned was to stay present, and so one of the things I did is I wrote a poem. So I started writing poetry more. I've always written poetry my whole life, but I started to write poetry even more when I decided to take time out for myself and pay attention, intentionally, take care of my time, and one of the poems that I wrote had to do with me being present and my family. They say to me I like it when I call you, mom, because you pick up the phone. They say to me I like it when I call you mom because you pick up the phone. Oh, I love it. I like it when I come home because you're here, you're really here.

Pamela Isom:

You're not always on that computer or looking into one thing, and I didn't even realize that that was going on, because when you're in the office, you're in the office and you're busy. When telework came about more and more, I was still into that zone, and so for my parting words, my parting words would continue to be be mindful of what you're doing, so that you remain present. I love that and understand what that means, but be present, because you can be a really really good AI expert and not be present and you're ineffective. You're not as effective as you could be. So I would say, let's remember to stay present. And I love what you said about the energy. So I wanted to make sure we got to hear from that, because you have some really good thoughts about our energy and how we manage our energy and not spend all our time on negative things but spend our time on good things energy because the negative stuff is not really energy, it's draining.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

It's so draining and it does have an impact on everything. It impacts us all.

Pamela Isom:

Yeah Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today and participate in this discussion, and I really really appreciate it. You're such a great person. I'm so glad we got to meet each other and I really thank you for being here and for being on the show. You know you're one of the first guests.

Kathleen Wisemandle:

I am so honored to be asked. I'm really am, pamela. I think so highly of you and I'm just so thankful to have this discussion with you. Thank you, thank you.

Pamela Isom:

All right, we'll talk to you later, okay, bye-bye, bye-bye.