AI or Not

E023 - AI or Not - Dr. Kelly Rose and Pamela Isom

• Pamela Isom • Season 1 • Episode 23

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Welcome to "AI or Not," the podcast where we explore the intersection of digital transformation and real-world wisdom, hosted by the accomplished Pamela Isom. With over 25 years of experience guiding leaders in corporate, public, and private sectors, Pamela, the CEO and Founder of IsAdvice & Consulting LLC, is a veteran in successfully navigating the complex realms of artificial intelligence, innovation, cyber issues, governance, data management, and ethical decision-making.

Ever wondered how artificial intelligence can revolutionize the energy sector? Join us for a captivating conversation with Dr. Kelly Rose, a Senior Fellow and Technical Director at National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL) AI Institute. Dr. Rose takes us through her remarkable career, sharing her experiences at the crossroads of data science, technology, and energy. From leading multidisciplinary teams to pioneering AI solutions for carbon management, she offers profound insights into how AI can address complex energy challenges, like the safe transportation and storage of CO2, while fostering responsible implementations through the SAMI Institute.

We reveal the power of multidisciplinary teams and high-performance computing at national labs and discuss how these collaborations are essential for tackling the pressing issues of carbon storage and energy systems. As Dr. Rose explains, integrating domain experts like data scientists and AI specialists is key to innovation and ensuring data security and reliability. Partnerships between national labs and the private sector are highlighted as a critical factor in not only advancing scientific research but also making it applicable and beneficial for public use, emphasizing the potential for community access to cutting-edge tools.

Discover how the National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL) is breaking new ground in empowering communities with innovative technologies. Through initiatives like the Energy Data Exchange (EDX) platform, NETL is making data and tools accessible to the public, sparking advancements in environmental, energy, and social justice research. Dr. Rose shares how AI is accelerating the identification of unconventional critical mineral sources within the U.S., showcasing the role of public-private partnerships in validating AI-driven models. The episode underscores the importance of embracing change, collaboration, and teamwork to harness AI for transformative innovations across sectors.



Pamela Isom:

This podcast is for informational purposes only. Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and not legal advice, neither health tax, nor professional nor official statements by their organizations. Guest views may not be those of the host.

Pamela Isom:

Guest views may not be those of the host. Hello and welcome to AI or Not, the podcast where business leaders from around the globe share wisdom and insights that are needed now to address issues and guide success in your artificial intelligence and your digital transformation journey. I am Pamela Isom and I am your podcast host. We have a special guest with us today, dr Kelly Rose. Kelly is a senior fellow and she is technical director for Nettles AI Institute. I met Kelly during my tenure while I was at the Department of Energy. We collaborated on so much, from carbon management to geospatial work to data science challenges. We worked on something called EDX together data fabric, you name it. So, kelly, welcome to AI or Not.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be here.

Pamela Isom:

And please expound upon your career journey and tell me more about what's next for you.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Well, I am very fortunate at this point in my career. I'm a senior scientist at the lab, so I have a very large research team, about 40 folk in different points in their career, so it's always an adventure. It's multidisciplinary, which is kind of me. I am a domain scientist by degree geologist. Geologists tend to be jack of all trades. We tend to pick up on a lot of different things, but over the last 15 plus years, a large portion of the work that I've been involved in from a research innovation perspective lines back to the technology side of things data compute, the crossroads between that and applied energy domain needs and so the geodata science team here at NETL that I lead is an amazing cross-disciplinary group that has many different disciplines software engineering, visualization, statistics, spatial temporal analytics, subsurface science and that's just one facet.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

I've also been, as you noted, the last three or four years leading the labs AI Institute, which is called SAMI, s-a-m-i. There's a lot of good information about the Institute online. We've been working very hard to transition the lessons learned from the Gaia R&D group that I've been developing and help our entire lab on this journey that the AI and technology advanced computing revolution has really been unlocking the ability to scale, but do it responsibly and in a trustworthy manner, is important For complex systems. It's not always as easy as people think it is, although the new tools, the new multimodal modeling and generative AI breakthroughs are definitely accelerating the pace of discovery and innovation. But you still need to trust it, you still need to have humans in the loop, and so we're on that journey more expansively here at the lab for applied energy applications in the carbon management and fossil energy domain.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

What the next chapter brings, it's always a path. I mean, the one thing I can say about being in the research space, even in the applied research space, is you're always channeling your five-year-old inner curiosity, you're always learning, you're always figuring out what's next, because that's our job. Our job is kind of to push the elbows and say why, what, how, and that's what this lab is about, that's what DOE is about and the other national labs, and that's the exciting opportunity. So you ask me what's next? Well, we'll check in in five years, but we're on interesting adventure right now, really focused on how we can responsibly and appropriately implement AI solutions in a number of different ways to these complex challenges that face society for energy, environment, societal needs, so that maybe we can do things better, meet demand and socioeconomic challenges as well. Sorry.

Pamela Isom:

No, that's perfect, because that was one of the things I want to know. I just kind of want to pull a little bit of a thread. So tell me more about this responsible and trustworthiness that you're trying to do to address some of these complex challenges. So one question that I have is, first of all, what are you doing? Give me some examples.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Let's start there first before I ask my next question. There's a lot of different examples with such a large research group from my perspective, but the lab as a whole we have a number of facets of things that we're tackling Bringing the domain expertise from the fossil energy carbon management arena, from science and engineering domains, and coupling it with advanced computing and AI, data science, math and statistical efforts. In my particular group, we've been working on a much more actionable, action-oriented, responsive activity taking data sets, models and tools that are more in the research domain they're more in the user domain and getting them positioned so that they can be used by stakeholders, including for science innovation continuing along that path but also for commercial and regulatory needs. When it comes to the carbon storage and transportation domain, helping unlock the responsible use of these data sets, models and tools to accelerate the deployment goals of the nation. With regards to capturing CO2 and responsibly sequestering it back in mostly geologic formations. That's most of our goal, but you have to get the CO2 from where you're capturing it, so you have to transport it. That requires responsible use of transportation devices. These are not simple systems and simple problems, but that's where the type of research team that the National Labs can muster in partnership with to the public through peer-reviewed processes. That includes data sets, ai models and tools, web applications and also traditional peer-reviewed journal publications over the last two years.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Over the last two years, this illustrates how we're using AI and data science methods to accelerate our R&D impact and our transition to deployment to benefit other domains that have a focus on safe and responsible storage of CO2. Where do you do this? How do you do it? So, if it's a pipeline that needs to transport CO2 from one area to another so that it can be stored, if it's understanding the reservoir potential and the ability of that reservoir to safely and over the long term and when we talk long term, we're talking thousands, tens of thousands of years when you put the CO2 back in the ground, put it back where it came from, we want it to stay there.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

So we actually have a lot of domain science expertise, data and knowledge that we've coupled with AI. There are other programs here at NETL you mentioned SMART, nrap, the National Risk Assessment Partnership that are working on those more site-specific activities and we're coupling our data and models and tools to help accelerate what they're doing in an integrated deployment effort. That's why having these multidisciplinary expert teams that understand all those complexities, but can also work with AI, data science and computational experts to accelerate the responsible, validated and trustworthy use of these types of data tools and models. That's the path we're on, and it's a really exciting time.

Pamela Isom:

That's totally cool. I appreciate that Of the teams that you just described, because I heard you mention these multidisciplinary teams. I heard you mention a lot there, so you gave some really good examples not thinking about this from a technical perspective, but thinking about it from a usage perspective of AI tools and how to ensure that the outcomes are safe. That's what you explained. So, thinking about the reservoirs and the transport, so you're using the tool, but you're actually looking at the outcomes because you want the outcomes to be sustainable in the 10,000 years. I can't comprehend. I can't comprehend, but you do have to think about that. But back to what I was going to ask about the multidisciplinary teams and I heard you mentioned, like data scientists and AI experts. Is that industry, academia, government, private sector? Like, what's the makeup of those teams? Private sector Like, what's the makeup of those teams?

Dr. Kelly Rose:

It's. It's a spectrum, for sure. It depends. You know the the tapestry of what I just worked together. You know, there there's sub teams, there's different projects, but we're we're aggregating them together to be deployment ready.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

And if you think about a good analogy would be I mean, we take for granted things like our smartphones. Now, right, the amount of technology and science and engineering that goes into developing not just the phone but the network it works upon and the cybersecurity elements. There's all these facets. We trust it because it's been validated, it's been tested, it's been developed with expertise and technology innovation in a coupled approach. It's exactly what we're doing in the national labs. It's in our group. We have different domain experts with geophysics, geologic, geochemistry, microbiology, material science, engineering, operational, like. All those different facets of expertise are brought to bear on this very complicated, multidisciplinary, multidimensional system. Now we've been coupling it with AI and advanced computing, data science experts as well, so we're accelerating the impact of the domain knowledge. We're using those experts with the AI, advanced computing, to validate and ensure that the outcomes of the models, the outcomes of the data sets and tools that we are putting out to public for their use is trustworthy, that they're getting robust results that are explainable, that they know the tolerances too.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

We're dealing with systems that still have a high degree of uncertainty associated with them. You think about weather forecasts. You know the weather forecast is not certain either. There's still mother nature. Natural systems are complicated and as much as humans have learned and have improved our ability to forecast and interact with these systems, it's also very important that we are communicating 70% chance of rain versus 10%, because it gives the end user more confidence in what that result is.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Do I carry the umbrella or do I leave it at home? It's the same with these carbon storage and transport models and tools, whether it's for pipelines, it's for the wellbores, it's for the reservoirs, it's for the monitoring models and techniques. It's for the monitoring models and techniques. We are doing the complicated, detailed domain science to build up the trust, but also communicate the uncertainty and the tolerances and provide tools in partnership with the technology sector and the energy sector, making things more user-friendly, making things more consumable, but also ensuring that it's safe and trustworthy so that it's not misused or misunderstood. We're doing the science and engineering piece. And then that partnership at the transition point is where, when it goes for commercial or regulatory public use, it needs to have those other more. Get it out of the research space up into the user consumer space, the deployment space.

Pamela Isom:

So is it accelerating that pipeline?

Dr. Kelly Rose:

It definitely is, and that does not preclude us still being responsible for validating, explaining and stress testing these models and tools to ensure that, with this accelerated deployment, that we are still delivering things that are appropriate for public consumption, deployment and use. But the opportunity to address a wide array of energy, environmental and societal problems in a more expedited manner is one of the most exciting things about this AI and advanced computing at scale revolution that's going on.

Pamela Isom:

Okay, so do you still have the supercomputer? You know you have the super fast ones.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Most of the national labs have a many decades 50 years plus history of being the nation's home for really advanced computing. One of the things that's happened in the last five, 10 years is the tech sector has adopted very similar. They've looked at what not just the DOE National Labs but other research entities across the world that have these high-performance computing, hpc systems and they've said this is technology that they were helping build. They are now benefiting from it. They are scaling it for their commercial purposes, but there are still niche configurations of these HPC high-performance computing clusters that the research domain academia, national labs, et cetera still needs. So here at NETL we have Juul is our main HPC system and it's very much dedicated to our carbon management and legacy fossil energy research mission space. It's been architected and tailored to operate the advanced models and codes that we write here in-house that are really not the research code. They're meant for both internal use and eventually, like I said, there's these pipelines when it's appropriate, to move them out for public-private partnership. But we definitely rely on our on-prem HPC, but we are now coupling that increasingly with these opportunities to use commercial and open source computing resources, cloud computing and other resources when appropriate.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

There's a difference. You know the HPC systems that we control in the labs sit behind firewalls. They may or may not be connected to networks, it depends on the configuration. So they can be used for different types of different classes of information and data. You know it doesn't always have to be something classified or spooky, but it can be. You know it's still, if it's tested, data that hasn't been fully vetted or mature to the point where it's appropriate for public use or it has sensitivities. We do a lot of public private partnerships with the energy sector and other domains and they want and other data are protected, but they want to give us the opportunity to use. Sometimes we opt to use our on-prem clusters because they come with more restrictions that improve that security, but mostly they offer NETL and its partners the opportunity to leverage the specialized configuration of our HPC clusters to power and solve those energy challenges that we are focused on. So it's really a coupled system at this point, which is exciting.

Pamela Isom:

Is the tool, is the HPC available to communities? I work with communities and sometimes they want to know if they can access some of the tools that you have and how can they use it to help with some of the needs in the communities, which I think about the place-based work that we have been working on when we work together. But I'm actually asking about shared compute capacity and also some of the applications that you have deployed or planning to deploy to really help with the community initiatives, particularly the underserved, underrepresented communities.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

So it depends on the DOE facility and lab facility and lab. Some of the HPC advanced computing clusters do offer the opportunity for external academic or other partners to propose to run models and do simulations on those configurations. They're called user facilities. Those are mostly managed out of DOE's Office of Science so they tend to align to the Office of Science labs, of which NETL is an applied energy lab. We align to the Office of Fossil Energy Carbon Management, so ours is in a slightly different space. There are also universities that have HPC clusters that are also available for that type of public proposal to use. So there are options out there.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

What NETL has done in the last couple of years is our HPC system is inside our firewalls because of the cybersecurity that it offers and some of the trust with our industry partners for our mission space other reasons.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

But we also have deployed through the Energy Data Exchange, edx, that you mentioned previously.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

We went live in the cloud so we moved it from on-prem clusters similar to our Juul system into a multi-cloud instantiation this last March.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

The goal of that is to offer highly curated models, tools and resources, including environmental, energy and social justice collections that this lab and our partnerships with Department of Treasury, white House, other parts of DOE. We've been working on using our geodata science expertise to aggregate this type of information, make it more easily available to the public, and that's where EDX bridges out of our on-prem secure environment. We offer public access to not just the environmental, energy and social justice resources, but a number of other fossil energy, carbon management, infrastructure, energy resource power generation, material science and other you know several tens of thousands of public products that are up on the EDX system. We are undergoing integration through that multi-cloud instantiation right now, where folks will be able to not only use the resources that we are housing in EDX but then also couple to cloud computing capabilities, either bringing their own cloud compute credits, or there may be some sandboxing levels as well, pam, for like the community benefit sandboxing level for analysis and make that democratized access to compute and data together a little more accessible.

Pamela Isom:

Is an example of one of the tools that might be available. Is carbon management one of the tools that's available through, or what capability, carbon management?

Dr. Kelly Rose:

is the program, but through our carbon capture storage and transport program, we've recently, on EDX Spatial, which is a multi-cloud Think of it as like Google Maps before energy, infrastructure, environmental and social related data. We just launched the connect platform. So if you, if you search for doe connect, it should come up at it's. It's basically it comes up in your browser. That's it. That's the user interface, but it's connected back to the cloud computing infrastructure that we've built out and highly curated thousands of highly curated data sets that are relevant to the fossil energy carbon management mission space, in particular, for carbon capture storage, transport who's doing what across the US and what types of activities and the opportunity for the user to then interact with that information. Do their own analysis, make their own maps, download. Download the results is what Connect is enabling through the EDX platform.

Pamela Isom:

I ask that because I work with community leaders and so we're always looking for tools that we might can leverage, and part of my work is explaining to the community leaders the value proposition of capabilities like AI, especially when I'm dealing with those that are fearful of the capabilities. I wanted to help them to see and experience some of the tools and the value proposition behind it, right, and also help them to understand that there's that LLMs can be safe. It depends on the practices that we've integrated with and which you have talked through on this call. So that's why I ask, because I like to guide them to EDX and a difference in a section within EDX, so we can start to explore some tools that maybe we're able to extrapolate and experiment with right, so to see if it can help us solve some of our community-oriented problems. And it makes me think of the place-based work. Could you tell me where we are, where you are, with the place-based work? Place-based work.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

You know every place around this country has their own community concerns. You know we each live in a different community across the country and we know the ins and outs of our community, what makes it tick, how it needs to evolve and as the energy economy has been transitioning away from more historical fossil energy production, there's both a legacy there that needs to be addressed, but there's also an opportunity to leverage the capabilities, knowledge and expertise of that workforce towards new domains. One of the other areas that NETL research, in collaboration with the Office of Fossil Energy Carbon Management, has been working on is unlocking an unconventional critical mineral materials domestic domain economy. The word unconventional is used purposefully. There's a conventional economy that's out there, but the resources for those critical minerals and materials are largely not found here in the US, or at least that's what was thought. So, again, this is another multidisciplinary. There's material scientists, there's geoscientists, there's AI, computational scientists, engineers, process and separation, materials manufacturing, supply chain analysis. There's so many facets to this. But this program is on such an exciting trajectory, in large part because ai is helping, helping us move quicker. We we took again domain knowledge and expertise about what we knew about the occurrence of the raw ore material for critical minerals materials, rare earth elements, cobalt, magnesium, earth, manganese and other high demand materials, but again, that are not as easily found here in the US or we didn't think they were, but there were these glimmers in the literature. You talked about large language models. Well, we used natural language processing and some of the prototype models to what are now LLMs because this was a few years ago to find all those nuggets in the peer-reviewed literature, using AI to aggregate that knowledge into one spot and then our teams here parse through that using their domain expertise to say where are these anomalies, where are these unconventional occurrences and what makes them tick, what controls them? We've been able to basically reverse, engineer, develop a model that using AI in various ways. It's a multimodal AI model that now can help forecast and predict where you're more likely to have these unconventional occurrences here in the US.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Last October, november, you asked about public-private partnerships. We had an energy company partnership that was giving us data from actual physical media at their mine so that we could use it for validation of our forecasting model, our resource assessment model. Can we find rare earths and critical minerals at the site in concentrations that would make it economically interesting? They gave us physical samples so we could do validation, we could do testing, we can build trust that the model is forecasting things appropriately. And over the last few years we have, and through that public-private partnership we were able to say yes and also then use this model in other regions for validation and testing as well. Across the US.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

The program at DOE and NHEL for fossil energy carbon management for critical minerals materials is now expanded through academia, industry, the national labs. They're doing a full assessment of the US to understand our domestic resource. They also have just awarded a major consortium called Metallic just is kicking off now and we've already started to crack open and validate. There is a domestic supply here, but now the question is how can we get it out of its in situ setting, whether it's mine, waste, geologic settings produced waters. Whatever its occurrence is, how do we get out of that responsibly? And Metallic is going to be working on advanced extraction and separation technologies that are more environmentally friendly.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

The footprint of these unconventional critical minerals and materials seems to largely coincide with the historical oil, gas and coal regions, not exclusively. They occur elsewhere. But you asked about place-based community transition. There's a whole other element to these programs. There's other research teams that are working on this, saying, whether it's the hydrogen economy, the carbon storage and capture economy or this critical minerals materials economy, there's so much opportunity for these communities and places to evolve from the historic energy footprint that this, this country and the world, has relied on, and unlock and innovate using ai and traditional science and engineering. We're walking with future and we're doing it together, and we're bringing the communities with us.

Pamela Isom:

Yeah, the communities want to engage, so they want to get involved. That's why I was asking about the, the EDX and any other way that communities, communities can engage. Maybe it become a part of the test teams, I'm not sure, but I know that we want to get involved so that we know that the solutions are addressing and meeting our needs. Plus, we just want to have the input.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

There's a number of headquarters programs. So there's the Communities LEAP, l-e-a-p program through DOE. That is, headquarters actually working on community engagement, exactly as you're enumerating across all of DOE space, so including renewable energy, nuclear energy, other domains as well. There's also the Interagency Working Group for Energy, community Transitions, which is a DOE. It's not just DOE but DOE is heavily involved. It's a White House-led initiative. They've been actually touring communities across the country that have been assessed to potentially have big impacts as coal, oil and gas conventional energy sectors continue to evolve. They are working within those communities, sending out delegations to communicate with them and interact with them, doing more advanced analyses on how to help with transition and identify these opportunities for interconnects with these other energy and environmental manufacturing opportunities. So there's a lot going on in facets.

Pamela Isom:

So my final question that I usually ask my listeners is are there words of wisdom or advice that you would like to share with the listeners of this podcast? But before I ask you that, I just have one question. So tell me about FAST. What's your connection with the FAST work?

Dr. Kelly Rose:

So FAST with two S's for those who want to. There is public information on DOE's website about the FAST initiative. There's also a funding bill that the Senate has submitted. It's Frontiers for Advanced Science, security and Technology. It is a DOE proposed initiative that would accelerate even more the responsible integration of AI and advanced computing with our energy and environmental and social mission spaces that the labs are already deploying.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

At the beginning of the podcast I talked about our AI Institute at NETL. You know Sammy has been looking at this, the AI Institute here at NETL on how we can help modernize our conventional science and engineering and analysis workforce and help them bring AI and advanced computing responsibly into their workflows, into their processes, into their research and innovation. We are an applied energy lab so we tend to work up the TRL scale closer to public-private partnerships for the energy sector and the technology sector scale closer to public-private partnerships for the energy sector and the technology sector. So we view FAST as a wonderful opportunity to continue to partner with those sectors, bringing our expertise, which includes some foundational AI and advanced computing. We have some very interesting innovations going on with alternative. We talked about HPC traditional you know high performance computing clusters earlier, but there's new architectures coming out from the technology sector that are more energy efficient, they're more compact, they're designed differently to use them for these types of scalable, advanced models Like what we we traditionally develop and use here at NETL, whether it's for critical minerals, resource identification, new architectures, new software design that can be met and used and take advantage of these more energy optimized architectures for compute. That's not going to be simple, but it requires innovation, it requires expertise. So it's a great example of this public-private partnership that we're already embarking on. The FAST initiative would allow us to scale that up much more broadly across the national lab space and do it in a way that's more integrated, bringing the discoveries from the basic science part of DOE and the security domain with the applied clean energy domain for mutual benefit accelerating, because we will have the data, the computational infrastructure, the AI-informed models and tools and the applications, which are the four big fillers of FAST From a science, security and applied energy perspective. We can leverage it together and bring the new technology elements in from the AI revolution that's going on now, but do it in a way that's responsible, very much like what I've been saying throughout this podcast, but doing it in a way that's bringing the entirety of DOE and our national labs together and it will have an accelerating aspect.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Fast was probably named on purpose. It's meant to accelerate DOE's impact for the societal benefit, so that we can innovate. We sit further down the TRL scale. We work on problems that the commercial and regulatory sector haven't even yet envisioned Basic science challenges, security problems and even in the applied energy space. We sit away from the commercial deployment side, but we are the pipeline to make the commercial sector, to keep feeding them the next generation and vice versa. They feed us their challenges and say could we work on this together? How do we solve this problem? This is an impediment, but we're focused on keeping the public happy and deriving commercial benefit, regulatory benefit, et cetera. So there's really this symbiotic relationship. Fast to me, is a really important initiative to bring DOE along more quickly and take advantage of the expertise that we already have in AI, advanced computing, but especially our domain, science and engineering. We have such a huge number thousands of employees across the labs that are here to provide that public service, to innovate for the future and the benefit of the nation and global benefit as well.

Pamela Isom:

That's amazing, that's so good, yeah, and it made me think of the energy efficiencies. We always have questions about the feedback that we're hearing about how these computers, especially the supercomputers and the HPCs, are consuming so much energy and so much water and just draining on our resources. But I didn't have to ask you that because, as you were explaining fast, you started to unravel some of that, so that's good. So my last question to you is what are your insights, words of wisdom? What do you want to leave with me and my listeners?

Dr. Kelly Rose:

I've told myself this, I tell my team this or anyone that asks this type of question. We're always learning, and that can be uncomfortable. Change is one of those interesting facets of humanity. We're always pushing for change and yet we sometimes scare ourselves with what is changing. So you'll hear this tug of war and it's our own way as a society of putting brakes on and checking things and then continuing to evolve, hopefully for the betterment of society.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Obviously there's folks that can do things that are maybe not the best use of new technology, but it takes curiosity and inquisitiveness and the willingness to continue to ask and look for the experts, learn, grow and tread upon this path to gain comfort, to understand the opportunity and figure out where you fit within it. One of the biggest things about this AI advanced computing transition it takes a team. There really is very little. There are some exceptions, but there's very little that a single person, a single expert, can do on their own. It is multidisciplinary, it is multidimensional, it is complex. It takes a team. Bring your expertise and the more that you can lean on folks that have other expertise and work together. The opportunity, whether it's to deploy something in the commercial sector or to innovate something in the basic research side, from an academic to a national lab perspective, the opportunity, or just learning something new on your own smartphone, you know, channel that inner five-year-old. What does this do? How does this work? How can I use this, in whatever application it is that you may be affiliated with, but the opportunity is there and the opportunity to make sure you're doing it with the helpers, with the other experts.

Dr. Kelly Rose:

Validating is what I'm seeing make sense. I'm coming from this perspective, you're coming from that perspective. To me, that's what's so exciting about right now. We're more connected than we've ever been. That can can again come with pros and cons. Use it to the better, the benefit of what you're doing. Use it to your advantage, because the opportunity to do amazing things, in whatever sector you sit in, is just, it's accelerating and it's going to continue to do that, because humans like to push the boundaries. Yes, we do, and part of the good side of things, it'll be. You know, it's an exciting time.

Pamela Isom:

It is an exciting time. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. I know you're very busy so you didn't have to do it. Like I said, it's good to see you and I will make sure that we stay in touch and I can't wait to get some news over to some of my community leaders so they can hear some of the things that you had to say. Thank you so much for being here.