AI or Not

E035 - AI or Not - Sarah Sullivan and Pamela Isom

• Pamela Isom • Season 2 • Episode 35

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Welcome to "AI or Not," the podcast where we explore the intersection of digital transformation and real-world wisdom, hosted by the accomplished Pamela Isom. With over 25 years of experience guiding leaders in corporate, public, and private sectors, Pamela, the CEO and Founder of IsAdvice & Consulting LLC, is a veteran in successfully navigating the complex realms of artificial intelligence, innovation, cyber issues, governance, data management, and ethical decision-making.

Sarah Sullivan, a transformational leader with nearly three decades in telecommunications engineering, takes us on an eye-opening journey through the practical applications of AI as a powerful ally in both professional endeavors and everyday life.

The conversation begins with Sarah's remarkable career trajectory from MCI to launching her own business, Gazed Technologies, where she provides equipment lifecycle management and architecture solutions enhanced by data analytics. Her experience navigates the shifting landscape of telecom through multiple acquisitions while maintaining her passion for the engineering side of the business.

Sarah reveals how she first embraced generative AI to tackle a complex grant opportunity for open RAN networks. Rather than diving blindly into unfamiliar territory, she uploaded the lengthy solicitation to ChatGPT for summarization, creating a foundation she could build upon with her expertise. This exemplifies her thoughtful approach to AI: using it to jumpstart processes and handle routine tasks while maintaining human oversight and judgment.

The discussion shifts to the Broadband Council's groundbreaking work uncovering communities that appear served on paper but experience poor broadband in reality. Their testing revealed critical insights about underserved areas where latency exceeds 100 milliseconds—directly impacting telehealth, education, and economic opportunities. Sarah's innovative use of AI to transform raw field data into actionable presentations demonstrates how technology can amplify human expertise rather than replace it.

Perhaps most compelling is Sarah's perspective on AI as a tool for lightening our cognitive load. "Think of generative AI as helping you take down one of those plates you're spinning," she advises. Whether creating visual content for the Society of Women Engineers, deciphering complex privacy statements, or simply finding a quick salmon recipe, Sarah frames AI as a solution that simplifies rather than complicates our already complex lives.

Have you considered how AI might help you balance your professional and personal responsibilities? Join us to discover practical ways to maintain human control while leveraging AI as your trusted ally in navigating today's digital landscape.

[00:00] Pamela Isom: This podcast is for informational purposes only.

[00:27] Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and not legal advice,

[00:35] neither health, tax nor professional nor official statements by their organizations.

[00:42] Guest views may not be those of the host.

[00:52] Hello and welcome to AI or Not, a podcast where business leaders from around the globe share wisdom and insights that are needed now to address issues and guide success in your artificial intelligence and digital transformation journey.

[01:09] I am Pamela Isom and I am your podcast host.

[01:13] We have a special guest with us today,

[01:16] Sarah Sullivan.

[01:18] Sarah is a transformational leader,

[01:21] Jo driving results by leading network planning and infrastructure design and training and leading productive, engaged engineering teams.

[01:32] So she can tell you more about herself.

[01:35] But I will say that we both work together on the Broadband Council,

[01:42] among a few other things.

[01:44] So, Sarah,

[01:46] Welcome to AI Or Not.

[01:49] Sarah Sullivan: Thank you, Pam. So happy to be here. So happy to be talking to you.

[01:53] Pamela Isom: I'm happy to have you as well. So let me ask you, you're about to do so, but tell me more about yourself, your career journey,

[02:02] and tell me what's next for you.

[02:05] And while you're doing all that, could you tell me some good news?

[02:10] Sarah Sullivan: I'll try my best.

[02:11] Okay. Career journey first. You can have. You'll help it keep me on track here.

[02:16] I have been in telecommunications for, I'm going on my 28th year. It's kind of amazing when you say that it's been, it's been a long journey. But I did start in telecom right out of college, so I was hired at mci.

[02:31] So some people may remember mci, great company.

[02:34] But from there things really started shifting and changing in the telecommunications field and I ended up leaving and going to a really small company telephone company called Cavalier, where I learned a lot.

[02:47] So it is, it is true, you may hear if you, if you move from a,

[02:51] between a large company and a smaller company,

[02:54] you get to learn so much more to a small company because you wear lots and lots of hats. So that was a really good experience for me.

[03:02] Definitely been part of the motions in the telecom world where companies get acquired.

[03:08] So my company was acquired and then acquired again and acquired again. So was DEF with my last company. I was with them for almost 24 years just through acquisition.

[03:18] So really worked for three different companies.

[03:21] But that telecom, that's the way it is. So love telecom. I'm on the engineering side of the business, as you mentioned.

[03:28] Love being on the engineering side of the business. Never thought coming out of college this is something I would do. I just happened to kind of drop into it. I Actually did an on campus interview at my university, got a job at MCI and enjoyed it, was good at it and that's history and I'm still doing it.

[03:46] As far as what's next for me, I have launched my own small business called Gazed Technologies, that's G A Z E D Technologies and we are providing equipment, lifecycle management and architecture solutions.

[04:03] Layer one, layer two, architecture solutions and we blend in data analytics to that. So that's our innovation piece in order to be able to really provide high quality services to our clients and customers.

[04:16] Pamela Isom: Wow. Congratulations on the launch of your new business. That's exciting and I think we can, we'll probably end up sharing some of the things that you do a little bit more as I ask you some questions.

[04:30] I'm sure some of that will come out, but congratulations, that's. That, that's good news.

[04:35] Thanks, thanks.

[04:37] That's good. Yeah. So speaking of that, you mentioned data analytics,

[04:43] you mentioned life cycle management.

[04:46] And so I'm thinking about today and generative AI and just the AI world in general.

[04:55] And so we talked a little bit about a discussion around the use of generative AI to help society with risk aversion,

[05:06] with confidence, to build confidence and to drive confidence and trustworthiness of the solutions. At least that's what I think about imperfectionism.

[05:17] So can we talk about that a little bit more?

[05:20] How do you think the generative AI can help society with these matters?

[05:26] Sarah Sullivan: Absolutely.

[05:28] So I'm going to take you back to my personal experience and then what I've seen around my colleagues and them using generative AI and how it's helped them too. So how it's helped me personally and then also how it's helped the people around me.

[05:41] I've been using it intentionally not very long, since probably March of 2024,

[05:47] so we're talking a little less than a year.

[05:51] And one of the main reasons I really got into where it really helped me and it really made a difference was associated with the Broadband Council.

[06:02] You may remember we had a opportunity we were looking at. It was a grant opportunity for open ran networks.

[06:11] And for me it was actually the first opportunity that I had to go through a very long solicitation and understand what the requirements were for this, for this grant opportunity.

[06:22] And so one of the first things I did is I took that,

[06:26] that paperwork, that packet, that solicitation and uploaded it into a generative AI tool. And my, my tool of choice is ChatGPT. I do pay for the paid version. So that's just what, what I Use and I've had good success with.

[06:40] But I uploaded it, asked it to summarize it for me and that's where I started.

[06:45] Now I didn't leave it there. I think word of wisdom. Just like we don't trust everything that's published on the Internet, don't Trust everything that ChatGPT gives you back in their response.

[06:55] So you have to check it over this, this packet of information, this long solicitation, definitely read through it. But ChatGPT helped get me started on something that I'd never done before.

[07:08] So if you talk about risk aversion and stepping into a space where you've never done any work,

[07:17] that's where, that's where my personal experience as ChatGPT really helped. It ramped me up and helped me go quicker.

[07:24] And at that same time, you know, I'm balancing a lot of different plates. You know, I've got my full time job,

[07:30] I'm chair of an employee resource group,

[07:33] I'm volunteering for the Society of Women Engineers. Like there's a lot going on.

[07:39] So ChatGPT allowed me to do this as well,

[07:42] which is something I was really passionate about and I really wanted to do and do well. I wanted to do a good job and it helped me, it helped me through that.

[07:51] Pamela Isom: Now tell me more. So did it help you understand the RFP better or did you use it to summarize the RFP to see what are some of the key things it's looking for, or did you use it to help you with getting some thoughts for your response?

[08:08] Sarah Sullivan: I say all three,

[08:10] but you know, again, I didn't rely on it as factual. You know, of course this, even the summarization I've seen with the generative AI can give you feedback that's not accurate.

[08:22] You know the answer's different, right? From your experience or whatnot, or you looked it up directly at the direct source.

[08:29] So I definitely was testing it out.

[08:32] But for the summary, like you said, to summarize this, tell me what is this? What are they even asking for here, right? That huge. When you're looking at those type of long documents and how there's, there's certain criteria when you have to respond.

[08:46] For example,

[08:48] there was a,

[08:49] a letter of agreement that had to be submitted for this response.

[08:54] Ask ChatGPT what does a letter of agreement usually look like?

[08:58] And it'll give you an example.

[09:00] So those are the types of things that I used it for.

[09:03] Pamela Isom: That's pretty cool.

[09:04] Everything turned out good with the work and with the tailoring and everything. That I know that we ended up doing and I know that everything turned out good. And what I really like is that you are clarifying that there's a risk aversion aspect to it from the standpoint that it helped sort through information that needed to get processed quickly.

[09:29] But the confidence and the perfectionism actually came from the human side.

[09:34] So you start to add, you said you added your own, you double checked everything and then you added your own knowledge, you added your own insights, you just used the AI tool as a jumpstart.

[09:47] So that is a form of risk aversion, because had it not been for that,

[09:52] you probably would not have got the response completed in time. So that makes a lot of sense.

[09:59] I think there are other elements to it from a risk aversion perspective as well.

[10:04] Sometimes when we use, when we lean on tools like this, it helps us to see those little details that we might would have missed in a rfp.

[10:13] And so that's a form of using it for the risk aversion because it'll spot the things that we probably have missed. And it all depends on how you prompt it again, if you're dealing with generative AI.

[10:24] But I think those are good and I know for a fact that this worked to our advantage, so that's why we wanted to discuss this. But I want to talk some more about that.

[10:34] So we have some work going on with the Broadband Council around Internet performance management and being able to identify whether or not the services are performing if there's a potential bottleneck in the network environment.

[10:51] Can you talk some more about that and why that is important?

[10:56] Sarah Sullivan: Sure,

[10:57] yes. So the Broadband Council has found that there's communities out there that look like they're served from a broadband perspective on paper,

[11:10] but not in experience.

[11:12] So what we were able to do was go into a community, they allowed us to come in and we took a small data set of different locations. Their,

[11:23] their speed, what came out of that? There were definitely some speed concerns compared to the, the broadband def, the new broadband definition, which is 100 meg download, 20 meg upload.

[11:36] So definitely.

[11:37] And if you're, if you're under that you're considered underserved. If you're, if you're way under, you're considered not served, not served at all. But the situation here was we found out of 9 out of 10 of the locations were under underserved and then over 50% of them had latency that was above 100 milliseconds.

[11:56] So if your latency on the upload, this was specifically on the Upload, not the Download is above 100 milliseconds,

[12:04] that is also considered underserved. And the reason latency is important because latency really can impact a call like this. Like you and I are on video calls.

[12:14] And for the communities, it can impact, you know, their telehealth, it can impact virtual education,

[12:20] it can even impact, you know, public safety situations and then the economy.

[12:26] You know, think of, you know, all the entrepreneurs, you know, we're. I just started my own, you know, small business, so I'm now an entrepreneur.

[12:34] And if I am in a location that doesn't have proper broadband in experience,

[12:40] you know, that's really going to impact my ability to do business and to bring money into the economy.

[12:45] So, so yeah, it's, it's very telling where we're looking forward to continue to work with through that community and help them solve that problem. That's part of it. So just doing the tests is just, that's the first step, you know, is, is there even.

[12:58] Can we gather data that matches your poor experience?

[13:02] Really? That, that's the first step. And in this situation we could and then we're, we're moving forward with them to help them solve that problem. And I can talk a little bit about how I use generative AI for, for that as well if you want me to go into that.

[13:14] Pamela Isom: Yep, go there.

[13:15] Sarah Sullivan: Okay.

[13:17] So I had the data points, which is, this is real life, you know, you're not, you can't do that with AI. Right. You've got to get in the field. You have to actually take the measurements.

[13:24] You have to take them in a certain way for, for them to give you a result that you can, that you can trust. So I took that data back and I used Chat GP to help me put it into a pretty little chart that I could present.

[13:38] So instead of me having to build that chart myself,

[13:40] it helped me build, build that chart.

[13:44] I had never done a proposal to a community before like this.

[13:47] So again,

[13:48] risk aversion.

[13:50] So I use Chat GPT to help give me an example of what a proposal would look like. And I just took that and I definitely had to put a lot of my knowledge into it.

[13:59] Like you said before, you know, you can't just go in and say, create this for me and you ask it to export it and you send it off. It doesn't work like that.

[14:07] It's just, it's a tool to help me really go faster.

[14:10] It helps me go faster and spend less time on things like that so I can spend more time on the Things that require me to actually out in the field doing the physical work.

[14:22] That's something where it frees up my time. So,

[14:26] yeah, that experience so far, it's still ongoing. But Broadband Council,

[14:31] we're really excited about helping this community with their broadband service.

[14:35] Pamela Isom: That is so good.

[14:37] So I am so happy to be working with the Broadband Council on this effort. We lean on broadband services, Internet services and good performance for everything from the. From using AI tools productively to allowing our first responders to get to us.

[14:56] Right. To communicate with us and get to us.

[14:59] So they count on and lean on good infrastructure.

[15:03] So this is a program that is building up that infrastructure and the tool that you created is perfect.

[15:12] So I think that it's a very good thing, very good thing that you had a chance to talk about it. And here's hoping that that will scale,

[15:20] because you never know. Like, we all run into situations where everything is going fine and then things just freeze and we have service providers that tell us, yes, but you have the top of the line.

[15:34] Right. And so you gave good examples of what is considered underserved and what is not. From a latency perspective as well as from a performance perspective.

[15:44] That's just good intel.

[15:46] We need to better understand what that means and also run these tests, like what you said in all communities, we need to run these tests because the Internet and the services can be unstable.

[16:03] Right. So thank you.

[16:05] Sarah Sullivan: Yeah, you're welcome. And you just said something that made me think of something else. These terms that maybe the general community doesn't know, or they've never heard of them before. That's also what the Broadband Council is doing.

[16:17] We're here to educate the community so they have the tools.

[16:21] They can call up their service provider and say,

[16:23] my latency is more than a hundred milliseconds consistently, and that considers me underserved. They could actually. They have that information and they're empowered to even do that themselves.

[16:35] Pamela Isom: Exactly. So that's really good. So I'm looking forward to the next steps.

[16:39] All right, so you talked a little bit about your community focus and impacts in describing that and the work that we're doing with the Broadband Council,

[16:48] is there anything else you wanted to share about the community focus and impacts generally.

[16:53] Sarah Sullivan: For that community, or just different.

[16:56] Pamela Isom: Any community impacts that you want to talk about? If there's anything else you want to add, it's fine. If you don't, that's okay, too.

[17:03] Sarah Sullivan: So I'd like to talk a little bit more about.

[17:07] We talked about risk aversion.

[17:08] I'd like to get in a little bit more to how I'll give an example here and that maybe that opens up an opportunity to talk about some more things.

[17:20] So as part of Society of Women Engineers, I'm a volunteer on their mentoring committee and there it's not a huge committee, it's probably six or seven truly active volunteers. We've got more than that, but maybe 10, maybe a little bit more than that.

[17:38] But it's a pretty small, it's pretty small crew and the majority of us have full time jobs,

[17:44] you know, full time families, you know, other things that we have going on. But we're really passionate about the Society of Women and Juniors mission and it's there for support,

[17:54] it's there for supporting engineers in the community.

[17:58] And from a, again, from a chat GPT perspective or from a generative AI perspective,

[18:05] we've started leaning on it for creating images for content that we put out.

[18:10] And again,

[18:12] I'm going to go back to my personal experience.

[18:14] I've never created an image before,

[18:17] but I can create some pretty cool images using generative AI that had. People have told me, they've been like, they're like, wow, that's a very, that's a really neat image.

[18:29] And I didn't create it, I prompted ChatGPT and you have to work with it and adjust it and things like that.

[18:35] But I think this kind of leads into the perfectionism when we put content out.

[18:41] When I put content out, I want it to be something that is the best that I can make it.

[18:48] And normally I'd spend a lot of time trying to create like maybe a PowerPoint image, like trying to create it for myself, maybe working in canva,

[18:56] trying to manually create that.

[18:58] But there are situations where you can use a generative AI tool and create a pretty neat looking image really quickly.

[19:06] That can impress.

[19:08] Pamela Isom: Yeah, so. So you're using it for the.

[19:11] Some of the alliances that you have, some of the focus groups you mentioned, the Society of Women Engineers,

[19:17] Broadband Council we already talked about.

[19:19] I think that that's really good. I think that we have been talking about how we see AI as an ally.

[19:26] So would you say that those are examples of how AI is an ally? And is there anything you want to add to that discussion?

[19:34] Sarah Sullivan: Absolutely. AI is your ally, A LI is your friend.

[19:40] AI is another form of support for you.

[19:45] For anyone working on something maybe they're unfamiliar with or is trying to perfect something before they put that content out, it can help you again, it could help you just, it can help you speed things up.

[19:56] It's not a replacement,

[19:58] it's a tool.

[20:00] And I consider it an ally because of that. It's not, it's not a person,

[20:04] but it's pretty darn close. You can have a conversation with it,

[20:10] so you can ask it to adjust its tone,

[20:14] those kind of things. So, yes, I do believe that AI is an ally.

[20:19] Pamela Isom: So I like this conversation. So I am going to touch on this just a little bit. So I was in a discussion maybe a couple months back,

[20:31] and we were talking about the lady that wanted to marry her hologram. It was an AI powered hologram and she said she married it and it was okay in where, you know, in her country.

[20:46] And I was like, okay, so we are going too far.

[20:50] But on the one hand,

[20:52] I think she needed,

[20:54] you know, I, I could get where she was coming from because I could see her seeing this as a safe conversation, right, with her,

[21:03] her hologram that's powered by AI so she's thinking a safe conversation.

[21:11] And I think that.

[21:13] So I'm a very positive person.

[21:15] But I worry that we go to an extreme.

[21:19] But I don't know if she is really at the extreme level. But I don't think I would try to marry my AI ally. You know what I mean?

[21:28] But do I think it can be an ally? Yes.

[21:33] But I remember that discussion that I had and I remember thinking on the one hand,

[21:39] I liked what she did in the sense that she empowered herself and her hologram is doing exactly what she wants it to do, right?

[21:48] So that I liked because I still saw the human in control.

[21:53] So I got onto that to say, I have no issues with us seeing AI as an ally.

[21:59] Just don't forget to stay in control. You are the human.

[22:04] You are the one in charge. You hear me talk about AI,

[22:07] human agency.

[22:09] Keep your empowerment. And you are the one that says and controls what your AI ally does.

[22:17] Don't run. Don't let it run wild.

[22:20] And in that particular case,

[22:22] like, I, I'm like, that's between her and her country and her state of being.

[22:28] I got concerned that maybe we were confusing companionship with entertainment because I think that was more entertainment.

[22:36] But that's her business, right? So.

[22:39] But just be mindful of the fact that if you see AI as an ally, I think it's cool. I think it's great.

[22:46] Just be good stewards, right? Be if you have an agent today and be careful about the permission that you give your agent if it's a human being or if it's a digital agent, right?

[22:58] If you have an ally that's great.

[23:00] But be, be careful.

[23:02] Sarah Sullivan: So, you know, can I say something to that?

[23:05] Pamela Isom: Yes.

[23:07] Sarah Sullivan: No matter what generative AI tool you use, and you could talk more to this than, than me, but check your permissions, check your settings,

[23:17] make sure that you're comfortable with what's being saved and shared to train other data.

[23:24] You can turn that off on most tools and I choose turn mine off. I, I, and I know people do different things, but I'm in control of that.

[23:33] Like what you said human agency. I love that term.

[23:37] And the other thing that, that make me that story. As you were telling the story about the woman who married her hologram.

[23:46] I was thinking of Star wars and I was thinking of R2D2. Am I saying, is that right? R2D2 thinking about,

[23:54] we think about that as more robotic.

[23:57] A robot. Right. But that's really,

[23:59] you connect the physical mechanics,

[24:03] the hardware with the software, which is the generative AI or the, you put those together.

[24:09] That's you, you have, you have a robot.

[24:12] And I think we've been watched the Jetsons when we were little, like we've been dreaming and you know, looking at that future for a long time, it's probably closer now than it ever is.

[24:25] But, but even if we do get there and you have your own,

[24:28] say, physical robot,

[24:30] human agency,

[24:31] you still need to be the one that's empowered. The human needs to be the one that's empowered.

[24:37] And that's such an important point.

[24:39] Pamela Isom: Yeah. And we have to understand how.

[24:42] So when we're dealing with government governing AI and governing agents, we have to be very deliberate about how do we effectively govern,

[24:53] what kind of permissions should they have because of the convenience. It's so easy to just rely on these tools.

[25:00] And that's where we need to be careful.

[25:02] Think about a human being. Are you just going to turn over your permissions to a human being because they're your delegate?

[25:09] I don't think so. And if you are,

[25:13] you might want to think twice. Right. Even no matter how much you trust them. Right. Be careful about the things that we be careful about. Who's controlling your data?

[25:23] How are they controlling your data?

[25:25] What rights do they have? Same thing. Right. So what rights do they have? And even more so in the digital world. How are they sharing your data?

[25:32] Can they share your data?

[25:34] Right. And so, so those are things to be mindful of in the day and time of the AI as an ally, which I agree,

[25:43] I agree with.

[25:44] Sarah Sullivan: So like everything you're saying, it brought up one more thing. I'm going to talk about here. Just so we saved for. Take for example, you download a new app and you have to check the privacy statement.

[25:56] You know, that's legalese and three pages long.

[26:00] Take that privacy statement, copy paste it into generative AI and ask it to summarize it for you and make sure that you're okay with the permissions and what it's doing with your data.

[26:14] That's another,

[26:15] another tip. Have you, have you tried that or have you ever read like, fully any of those, those privacy statements?

[26:22] Pamela Isom: My privacy statement is long on my website. It's, it's, it's long and very comprehensive.

[26:29] So I had to,

[26:30] to come up with a privacy statement, I had to check with Virginia laws to make sure that I was compliant with the law.

[26:37] And then I had to query one of the AI tools to help me track down any Virginia legislation that I may not have thought about before running it by my legal teams.

[26:49] So, yes, and I use tools like that to help me out because I don't want to miss anything.

[26:56] So I will use it to assist me.

[26:59] Yeah.

[26:59] Sarah Sullivan: Excellent. Nice. That's really neat to hear. I'll have to go check out your privacy statement and plug it into ChatGPT.

[27:08] Pamela Isom: Don't tell me,

[27:09] don't tell me what it says. Don't.

[27:13] Okay, so. All right, so now we're towards the end of our talk here. It's been a great talk, great time chatting with you.

[27:22] I would like to know, are there a word. So there are words you can share words of wisdom,

[27:27] you can share advice, give advice,

[27:29] or you can make a call to action, or you can do all three, but your last words and parting words.

[27:37] Please share with the listeners so we can take heed and consider me a listener at this point.

[27:43] Sarah Sullivan: Okay,

[27:44] so I don't know what category this is going to fall under. Probably, probably words, words of wisdom or words of advice.

[27:51] So we're all have multiple plates up in the air. So imagine all these plates you're trying to spin and carry. You got family, got work.

[28:01] You, maybe you have elderly parents,

[28:03] you've got grocery shopping, you got taking care of the house, cutting the grass. You've got all these plates up in the air.

[28:08] Think of generative AI as helping you take down one of those plates.

[28:13] It's actually helping you.

[28:15] It's not another tool that you have to add to your, your plates that you already have. Spinning it actually can help you if you use it to help speed things up.

[28:26] Some of the things that we talked about today,

[28:28] and you could use it to give you A recipe. I use it all the time for cooking.

[28:33] To say, give me a simple. I use it just last week, give me a simple recipe to cook salmon. I got a big piece of salmon from Costco. I haven't cooked salmon in forever.

[28:44] And the first recipe it spit out was. Had like 10 ingredients. And I said, no,

[28:49] I need something more simple. I don't have this, I don't have that. It spit out for me. You know, it told me how long to cook it,

[28:56] what degrees to cook it at. Now I cooked it longer. It's a perfect example. I cooked it longer than it told me to because I used my own experience looking at it.

[29:05] Okay, for me, I'm going to cook it a little bit longer. So I didn't. I do it exactly like it said, but I use it as guidance.

[29:12] So that was so much quicker.

[29:15] That kind of again, took down one of those plates. I'm spinning. How am I going to cook this salmon?

[29:20] I could have searched on the Internet,

[29:22] but this is actually, for me,

[29:24] it's easier and more simplified than just doing a search, say on like Google. Google search engine.

[29:32] So that is my advice. Think of AI as your ally and think of it not as adding to your plate. Think of it as taking one of those plates down and simplifying your life.

[29:43] Pamela Isom: That's very helpful and very insightful. So thank you very much for, for being here and chatting with me. And I do think that this whole conversation has been really about how AI is your ally and we concluded with that.

[30:00] But I think if I, if I think back to the whole conversation, that's kind of was the gist of it.

[30:06] I certainly do appreciate your expertise and how you are a consumer of AI tools to simplify things and make things easier for you and how you are being innovative with the use of AI.

[30:22] So, and you shared some really good examples. So I really appreciate it. And I just want to say thank you again.

[30:40] Sa.