AI or Not

E041 – AI or Not – Renee Wynn and Pamela Isom

• Pamela Isom • Season 2 • Episode 41

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Welcome to "AI or Not," the podcast where we explore the intersection of digital transformation and real-world wisdom, hosted by the accomplished Pamela Isom. With over 25 years of experience guiding leaders in corporate, public, and private sectors, Pamela, the CEO and Founder of IsAdvice & Consulting LLC, is a veteran in successfully navigating the complex realms of artificial intelligence, innovation, cyber issues, governance, data management, and ethical decision-making.

What happens when change is thrust upon us rather than chosen? In this thought-provoking conversation, Renee Wynn, former NASA CIO, EPA executive, and current independent board director, shares hard-won wisdom about navigating unexpected business disruptions with resilience and strategic clarity.

Drawing from her remarkable 30-year federal career, Renee offers a unique framework for approaching enterprise risk and technological transformation. She recounts how transitioning from EPA's environmental mission to NASA's cutting-edge operations taught her to view disruption as an opportunity for growth. The key? Developing the ability to pause, breathe through emotional reactions, and make thoughtful pivots when plans suddenly change.

Renee provides an insider's perspective on boardroom oversight of AI implementation, emphasizing the critical question organizations should ask: "Are we ready?" Rather than rushing into AI adoption, she advocates for identifying appropriate use cases, establishing governance frameworks, and, most importantly, keeping experienced humans in the loop. Her story about NASA's Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System, which has saved pilots' lives by taking control of fighter jets during emergencies, powerfully illustrates how AI can enhance human capabilities when thoughtfully implemented.

The conversation culminates with wisdom from former Secretary Condoleezza Rice that perfectly captures the balance organizations must strike: "Innovate aggressively, but guard aggressively." For individuals navigating this rapidly changing landscape, Renee offers this compelling call to action: "Be the human they want in the loop" by continuously upskilling and demonstrating your value.


Whether you're leading an organization through digital transformation or wondering how to remain relevant in an AI-powered world, this episode offers practical guidance for turning unexpected change into your greatest advantage. Subscribe now to join the conversation about creating resilient organizations that combine technological innovation with human wisdom.



[00:00] Pamela Isom: Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and not legal advice,

[00:35] neither health, tax nor professional nor official statements by their organizations.

[00:42] Guest views may not be those of the host.

[00:53] Hello and welcome to AI or not, the Podcast,

[00:56] where business leaders from around the globe share wisdom and insights that are needed now to address issues and guide success in your artificial intelligence journey and your digital transformation journey.

[01:10] Today we have Renee Wynn with us. I'm so excited to have you back, Renee.

[01:16] Renee is an independent Board Director,

[01:19] former cio.

[01:20] She'll tell us all about her.

[01:23] For those that aren't familiar with her from our last talk,

[01:26] but I will say that she is a former CIO at two esteemed federal agencies and I'm just so happy to have you back here talking with me today. So welcome to AI Or Not.

[01:40] Renee Wynn: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[01:41] Pamela Isom: It's so great to be back.

[01:43] Renee Wynn: And of course, the best part about coming back is spending time with you, which we don't get often enough.

[01:49] But thank you for the invitation. I'm looking forward to the conversation and.

[01:52] Pamela Isom: We’ll figure out the rest. We'll figure out how to spend a little bit more time together.

[01:57] Renee Wynn: You bet, you bet.

[01:58] Pamela Isom: As we get going here, I'd like you to refresh the audience with more information on yourself and then fill me in on what you want to share that's happened since we last conversated on the show.

[02:13] Renee Wynn: So happy to be back. So, just a quick bit about me. So I was in the United States federal government for 30 years.

[02:20] Hard to believe.

[02:21] I spent 25 years at the Environmental Protection Agency, where I spent most of that time working in the Mission in the Superfund program, the cleanup of hazardous waste sites that are considered very hazardous to human health and the environment.

[02:35] Then tech started coming into the workforce, right? I was around before tech was part of everything and had a lot to say about how it could actually help us do our jobs, both in the field as well as in the office.

[02:50] Had so much to say that they said, yeah, know, maybe you should come over and serve as the Deputy CIO at epa. And I embraced the opportunity. Although I will say it was scary leaving mission behind and moving into operations.

[03:04] Very, very different pace. Going from policy and legislative writing and writing testimony and preparing your political appointees or your bosses for the Hill. Very different pace than operations.

[03:17] But I loved the pace.

[03:19] So I served as a deputy CIO. I was the acting CIO there at EPA for about 19 and I grew to love the job and decided that I wanted to get better.

[03:29] I needed a bigger place to go, try and get better, as well as bring my own skills there. And that's when the opportunity showed up at NASA. And I went over to NASA, failed as the deputy cio.

[03:41] And I say failed, because just being there a few weeks, they said, yeah, why don't you just be the cio?

[03:46] The CIO at the time had already announced that he wanted to retire. So they were looking for the individual to come in behind them. And they wanted somebody at NASA that had been on the outside and.

[03:55] And had managed some large transformational projects.

[03:59] So that's how I got to NASA. And I was the CIO there for nearly five years.

[04:04] And I retired from NASA a few years ago,

[04:07] and I delivered IT and cybersecurity services across the globe. Cause we still. We did operate, and we still operate in Russia and delivered services off the globe to our astronauts in International Space Station.

[04:22] So that was certainly a big surprise to have astronauts at the end of your. It being part of your user group, that amazing group of individuals, as were the test pilots, the scientists,

[04:34] the rocket scientists, the physicists, the astrophysicists. It was a lot of fun. It was a big challenge. And I learned a lot being there at NASA. So great fun.

[04:43] Pamela Isom: That's pretty cool. So I know we had talked about this before, but what's it like working with the astronauts? Did you meet some of them?

[04:51] Renee Wynn: Oh, I did. Right. I walked into NASA being.

[04:54] Being not very familiar with how NASA operated until I got there and went into my first major meeting, and there was at least three astronauts, former astronauts,

[05:04] in the room with me. And I went, oh, okay. So I guess at NASA, it's a little bit easier to come by talking to an astronaut than it is person on the street and the like.

[05:15] So at the time, Charlie Bolden, who was a former astronaut,

[05:19] he was the head of NASA when I first arrived.

[05:23] Janet Kavandi, who was the head of the Glenn center there in Cleveland, she was an astronaut.

[05:30] The head of the Science Mission Directorate, he was an astronaut.

[05:35] And I'm trying to think if the astronaut. Oh, Ellen Ochoa was the head of Johnson Space Centers and she was an astronaut.

[05:42] So it wasn't really hard to come by to meet some astronauts. And they're pretty amazing, I will tell you that. I feel they are amazing folks and their heart is in all that they do,

[05:54] and safety is paramount to them. And they are really smart. So it was fun to work with them. It was challenging to work with them because you had to Bring your best game.

[06:04] There was no day where you sort of checked out and phoned it in. You had to bring it all in order to serve them at your best and for their best interests at all times.

[06:15] And I had a great team, so it made it a lot easier.

[06:17] Pamela Isom: That's pretty cool. So I, before I get to my next question for you,

[06:22] I'll tell you this, that I was a part of a leadership program,

[06:26] and it was a leadership development program. And part of that program was to spend time at NASA.

[06:32] So we had our training that actually occurred on the ground at NASA headquarters,

[06:41] not here in D.C.

[06:43] we were in Florida, I think.

[06:46] And so I was a part of that leadership development program. And it was such an honor. And I met an astronaut. And so I won't say his name here, but I met an astronaut.

[06:57] And I think what I really admired when we met him, as we're working on cultivating our leadership skills,

[07:04] is what I really admired about him was his discipline. So he stayed mellow. He talked to us about different scenarios and when you're under pressure and how you deal with and address the pressure.

[07:18] And he was just this real, even mellow person who you wouldn't think all the things that he had done.

[07:26] And so I can see that skill set,

[07:30] I can see working with them and being able to collaborate with them as a way to help build,

[07:39] to help us stay grounded as leaders.

[07:43] Renee Wynn: Yeah, it's great observation, Pam. And I want to add to it is I think it's absolutely right. And I think the United States government has gone through a lot of change this particular year.

[07:55] And I know if I had been in, I would have felt so threatened because my identity really was wrapped up into being a government employee and hadn't realized it until I decided to retire that I had to unwrap my personal identity as a federal employee and serving the United States public,

[08:15] serving the astronauts,

[08:17] serving as part of my job, which was just a great honor to do that,

[08:22] and being able to remain calm in a situation where in this instance, I was feeling a particular way as I watched this is staying calm allows you to breathe and it allows you to think.

[08:37] Now, that doesn't ignore the emotional feelings. It means that you need to have strategies to work with stress and pressure and understand where it's coming from and come up with those strategies if you were ahead of an organization at that time.

[08:56] So I always imagine myself back,

[08:58] I would have had to have walked in and say, yes, this is happening, and try to be calm so people could think for themselves about the decision to take the package or not take the package and an uncertain future because it was so different and changing so fast,

[09:19] you weren't sure what next week was going to look like. And being calm in that storm would allow you to help others,

[09:28] it would allow you to help your organization,

[09:31] it would allow you to think best for you and your family. And I think that calmness under pressure,

[09:39] in chaos is so important for people to cultivate.

[09:43] Pamela Isom: I would like to dig some more into that.

[09:46] So we had talked a little bit earlier about the workforce and just survive in the middle of storms. And really what I want to talk about is how do you deal with a situation where you're running a business,

[10:05] you're used to doing things a certain way,

[10:09] and suddenly you have to,

[10:12] you are experiencing change that you didn't expect to experience.

[10:17] And how do you make sure that you're prepared because you've got your business to deal with,

[10:23] you've got the people that's in your organization.

[10:27] You've got to keep calm because you don't know what kind of impact that will have on those that are working with you and around you. I mean, how do we cope with this?

[10:39] Renee Wynn: So let me get started and I want you to throw your ideas in here as well.

[10:45] So let's break out individual versus business. And I'm going to go to the business part first and part I'm going to this because when I got to NASA,

[10:53] I had the, the,

[10:56] the pleasure of learning about enterprise risk in a very different manner than I'd ever thought about when I was in policy writing and looking at human health and environmental enterprise risk.

[11:08] Like, what are the biggest risks to NASA?

[11:10] And coming from the IT and cybersecurity world,

[11:14] this was now the first time NASA was going to revise its enterprise risk model to include both IT and cybersecurity.

[11:22] First question comes up, should it be its own swim lane? And our answer was no. At first I said yes, but then as I learned about the model, I said no, no, no, no.

[11:34] IT and cyber risk is a financial and reputational risk.

[11:40] Just like if there had been a significant accident with an astronaut.

[11:46] That is a huge risk reputationally for NASA. And you don't even want to turn harm to lives into a financial thing. But it does become a financial thing.

[11:58] So it allowed me to think about cyber and IT as first a financial and reputational risk. I put those two together because in the private sector rate, if you get taken out by it.

[12:11] Was it Victoria's secrets? I think it was them.

[12:14] Their website went down and there was no digital commerce for days. That, that is a financial and it's a reputational right. For days I couldn't go buy what I might want to buy at this particular website.

[12:26] That is financial,

[12:28] that is reputational.

[12:29] But it is also an operational issue. It operates pretty much everything.

[12:35] The gates when you walk in at NASA are all automatic. So if we don't have power and we don't have it,

[12:42] they're not opening. Now, of course, we could probably jump those gates. The guards might not like that. But you've got to have resilience built into your operational issues. So if the IT and or power goes out, you can still figure out how to operate the critical elements of what you do.

[12:57] Not everything, but critical.

[12:59] Then you have a strategic one and that is how are you building cybersecurity and IT and software and AI into your future. And that's your strategic piece that goes with it.

[13:09] And then projects and programs all have an IT and cyber risk embedded in. And it's at NASA where I got to think differently about how IT and cyber kind of fit and the overall picture of how you do things.

[13:23] So we're, well, okay, this is a long way to go. To get back to the point of the business on an annual basis, we would go over IT to see if there were any major changes to our risk posture.

[13:37] Businesses, no matter how big or small,

[13:40] should say to themselves, beginning of the year, maybe you close the year wherever you want to put this on an annual basis, you have a conversation about what are your financial risks, where are you with the.

[13:52] If you're a government contractor with the diversity of your portfolio,

[13:56] if it isn't as diverse as maybe you'd like it to be, well then, you know, the year ahead is go find business somewhere else. Could be in the states, it could be another federal agency, or maybe you want to branch out in the commercial level.

[14:10] So by pausing and saying to yourself,

[14:13] what are my financial risks? How is the world changing and where do I want to play so I remain a viable business partner. You need to do this on an annual basis.

[14:26] Doesn't have to be this big giant thing.

[14:29] It just needs to be, where do I want to go? I myself, I am just me and my little old business.

[14:35] My business is largely a financial instrument and I bring myself to the table for folks.

[14:41] But I've known for a while that probably at the five year mark, I would need to pivot and think about different ways of bringing in business because I like to work, it's my hobby.

[14:54] And so it happened to me.

[14:58] And I did have an emotional response to a client calling and saying, we really need to change your contract.

[15:04] I understood it intellectually because I saw what was happening with the government,

[15:09] but it still was, well, wait a minute. I was getting ready to do this for myself, not you, to me.

[15:16] So the way you think of it, if I was making the change, I was embracing it. In this instance, the change was being made to me. I had to pause because I did have an emotional reaction.

[15:26] And I went and I just breathed through it. I worked through it in my mind, and I went, you know what?

[15:32] I figured around five years there would be change. I'm having change a little different than I expected.

[15:37] And so I pivoted and I said, here's the direction that I want to go. Here's how I'm going to spend my time.

[15:44] Some of it's in education,

[15:45] some of it's in writing.

[15:47] Some of it's helping clients in a different way,

[15:50] but by pausing and thinking about a year at a time,

[15:54] reflecting and leaning forward when things happen that we don't anticipate,

[16:00] yes, you'll have an emotional reaction.

[16:02] You can work through this. But you've already done some of the critical thinking that's necessary to say, where can I branch out?

[16:10] Or what should I do next?

[16:12] But you've gone through this too, Pam, so please add to this one.

[16:17] Pamela Isom: I did. I am going through it. We all are going through it. I have clients I counted on,

[16:25] and they experienced some challenges with their contracts. And so it had a ripple effect to me.

[16:32] I had to say,

[16:34] well,

[16:35] first of all, I had to be there for the client, just like you, and provide support.

[16:39] So let's figure out what can be done.

[16:43] So I worked with them, and they were upset, right? It was an upsetting situation. So there was no sense in me adding to it.

[16:49] So I accepted what it was and said, let's do what we can here. So we came to a compromise, almost like what you said then. The other thing is,

[16:59] I got busy thinking you aren't the only one going through this.

[17:04] And,

[17:05] no, you don't work directly for government per se,

[17:10] but you have clients. So there's the changes that we're. That are happening right now. You got extreme weather events that's wiping out things, right? Causing all kinds of problems.

[17:21] You've got all kinds of just. Just chaos all over.

[17:25] And so what I did was I said, well,

[17:28] here's what I can do.

[17:30] So I think that we need to upskill. I think that we always need to upskill I don't think that we can learn enough.

[17:39] I'm really. I was always the kind that never felt like that. That's for them to do, not me.

[17:46] Never. So if you say that the role of the ciso, for instance,

[17:52] as a part of my upbringing, I would say, no, I can do that too.

[17:56] If you say that that's the role of some official,

[18:00] I'd be like, well, I could probably do that too.

[18:03] So that's kind of like my nature.

[18:05] So in this particular case, I'm already working in the cyber realm and the AI realm. But I thought, I really want to see more people pivot to learning AI and using AI,

[18:18] but also tapped into red teaming.

[18:22] So I really wanted to see more people do that, because I know that in the cybersecurity space,

[18:29] whether it's cybersecurity or not, we need to understand how to put.

[18:34] How to test our defenses.

[18:37] I thought this would be really good for people to zero in on and cultivate. So we put together a class.

[18:46] My team and I have a red team operator, and I have an AI engineer. And so we all huddled and we said, okay, so let's pull together class. So I pulled together this on demand class.

[18:57] And we did it so that when we announced it, we said, if you are considering a career pivot or just considering upskilling your skills,

[19:09] this class is for you.

[19:11] And that was a result of what's happening.

[19:15] So I still think we should have the mindset to support each other.

[19:20] We should have the mindset to, we all gotta survive, right? We all gotta thrive. We all have to survive. But if we have the mindset to support one another,

[19:31] then I think it goes a long way. And that's what we ended up doing. And really, that was because of my.

[19:37] Because of what happened to me.

[19:39] Renee Wynn: Yeah,

[19:40] I think it's great, right? What a way for you and your team to turn a situation in.

[19:47] A loss of business, an increase in time,

[19:50] right? So now you have something you've always, like, I don't know about you, but it's like, oh, if I had more time now. You were given, in a way, the gift of time.

[19:57] And you created a class. So it engaged you, engaged the team, and now you've made it available for others. What a great way to take a change and pivot and then give back.

[20:10] And that's.

[20:11] Pamela Isom: That's what.

[20:12] Renee Wynn: That's what it is. It's perseverance and resilience.

[20:15] And I understand everyone's situation is different,

[20:19] but pausing and saying, okay,

[20:21] how am I going to Use this and you can take classes. I've recently gotten into venture capital investing myself.

[20:31] So I just did it and I said I'll let the people, the smart people, the educated people in that area run it. And I'm taking my time to learn it by being,

[20:41] you know, on the sidelines. It is my money, but I'm on the sidelines kind of learning about how this all works and doing reading and sitting in on the meetings and the evaluation of the companies.

[20:51] I've signed on with a private equity firm. I'm reading a book on how to.

[20:57] It's a book on getting ready to be purchased by a pe. So it's the business owner's perspective.

[21:04] So if any of my clients want to go that route,

[21:08] I can be in a situation of understanding a model of being purchased by a private equity and I'm going to read a book from the opposite side from that. So yes, I've now used the time I'm not doing with my clients before, at least not right now,

[21:25] and using it to get educated and pivot and figure out how to continue to add value to those that I work for.

[21:35] Pamela Isom: Exactly. Yeah. That is my story. I think that that's really good, Renee. So my follow up question to you is. And you started to kind of go there,

[21:45] tell me what it's like to be an independent board director.

[21:48] Renee Wynn: Yeah. So I'm on a different kind of board for folks and actually I want to be clear, if people go look at LinkedIn, I do three nonprofit boards. That's my give back.

[22:01] I am on advisory boards and it's how to work with the government, largely for some tech companies because there are some nuances to delivering to the government and related to those nuances, delivering to the company, the government.

[22:16] I'm on what's called a foci board, foreign owned and control and influence business.

[22:24] And it's an Israeli company, it's Axonius and I work on. I am on the board of the Axonius Federal Service Board. AFS is what we call it.

[22:34] And not only do we have a fiduciary responsibility for this sibling or company of this Israeli company, Axonius. Right.

[22:44] We also have a responsibility so that the information that cannot go to a foreign owned company doesn't go to them. So there's this national security element associated with our responsibilities for business growth.

[23:00] And it's a sweet spot for former feds in particularly because a lot of us still carry our clearances. I have my clearance. I'm looking in particular, I've focused My time on foci boards, as they're called, because I can walk in ready to go.

[23:15] And I'm familiar with this one, so. But as I look at the board,

[23:19] we've talked about AI,

[23:22] we've talked about succession planning for our people.

[23:25] Do we have the right people for this next phase of growth of the company?

[23:31] There are individuals who are great,

[23:35] I'll call it at the super startup mode, right? They're jack of all trades and everything. But if you start to get into a little bit of O and M and a little bit of the same things going on, they don't thrive.

[23:47] So then you replace your staffing with people that do better with laying out policies and procedures to be repeated, and you examine them to make sure that it's appropriate friction,

[24:03] not friction that just creates busy work. We all remember our substitute teachers where you got paperwork to do and none of us liked it. We wanted to some depends on how old you were, how much you wanted to learn it that day.

[24:15] And so you get to do a lot of different things. So from the board perspective,

[24:19] you're a jack of many trades. You bring an expertise to the table and you convert that expertise into value for that business,

[24:28] both through your network as well as the experience that you've had in business at high level situ, you know, high level positions. You know, I did report to the administrator, so technically I'm a C suite cio, as most in the federal government are.

[24:44] So it's been fun watching this shift. In particular, we had to look at the changes in the federal government structure and make sure that the business was as resilient as possible for those elements of the control.

[24:59] Pamela Isom: So I know that when it comes to the boardrooms that they have serious fiduciary responsibility.

[25:07] I know that would be something that we have to take very seriously.

[25:11] But what I was thinking is we know that we have to take it seriously because it is a fiduciary responsibility. Are we getting it right? Are the boardrooms getting it right?

[25:22] And especially when it comes to AI transformation and oversight,

[25:26] it depends, right?

[25:28] Renee Wynn: Because boards are made up of individuals.

[25:30] I have talked to people where the board is, bring it in, no matter whatever the cost is.

[25:37] And then I've had conversations more on the other side. And this is where I would land because I've worked with AI when I was at NASA. I've seen what AI can do.

[25:45] And I also see the dark side of technology and what AI can do to your business. And we've already had the first case where AI Bot said that an individual would get a refund and the business had to pay the refund, even though AI shouldn't have said it.

[26:03] But it did say it and so they ended up being responsible. So it speaks for your business.

[26:09] That's the dark side of what AI can do. AI can spit out wrong answers, it hallucinates and that. But if you, if your approach,

[26:18] I think like anything new is, well, let's,

[26:22] are we ready? Your first conversation with AI in particular is your readiness.

[26:28] Do you have good use cases that you would say, yes, let's try to do this.

[26:37] It's been practiced for a long time in the IT world with what they call zero help desk ticket level zero,

[26:45] right where you interact and go, I just need a password change. Now you're all set to do your password reset.

[26:53] And if you needed to elevate, you could work and get a person for first tier, second tier, third tier, somebody comes to your desk to fix it. Are you ready?

[27:02] So the first part is, yes, we do have a couple of really good use cases that can be controlled. We know what the answers ought to be.

[27:10] So we can really work with this experimentation and get the parameters right to make it work, work well.

[27:16] Then you test it and then you test it and then you do a concept of operation in real life with people that know to expect,

[27:24] they know their, their jobs really well. So if it, the AI gives feedback that isn't aligned with what should happen,

[27:32] the experts can then help fine tune the tool and then you go ahead and go to scale.

[27:39] So your workforce has to be ready.

[27:41] You have got to upskill your workforce. Your workforce,

[27:46] especially someone that's probably been around five to 10 years, they know your business inside and out.

[27:52] You've relied on that knowledge to make successful days,

[27:57] sales, revenue, however you want to look at it well, that's who you need to tap into to bring AI into their jobs.

[28:05] And so they've got to be part of the scaling opportunities or the testing opportunities or the concept of operations opportunities,

[28:14] because they're the people that are going to tell you whether you got it right or not.

[28:18] And if it spits out an odd answer, an experienced person is going to go,

[28:23] wait a minute,

[28:24] what's that answer? And they're the one that could analyze what went wrong.

[28:30] It's not the cio, it's not the cto,

[28:33] it's the person in the business gaining the benefit of the AI tool that is going to tell you whether it's working or not.

[28:42] So the first part is,

[28:44] are you ready with a couple of Use cases.

[28:46] Do you have enough people in your workforce skilled enough to help you do it? And then are you prepared to go through the process of scaling, which is a learning curve?

[28:58] And it's going to be slow at first and then it's going to pick up steam and then you're going to be able to rinse, lather, repeat with other opportunities. Does AI fit in every place across your business?

[29:11] No. Does it fit in many places?

[29:14] Yes.

[29:15] You are better off in the yes column where it fits. Don't force fit it,

[29:20] practice it and keep the humans in the loop.

[29:23] And now you will probably free up time for some of your skilled workforce.

[29:29] What are other ways you can use them? Maybe you just move them to the IT testing team for all AI for your business. And there's lots of ways to look at individual contribution.

[29:40] Besides, we don't need you anymore.

[29:43] Be thoughtful towards that because you've spent lots and lots of time training them. Don't lose that institutional knowledge just because you want to reduce the bottom line.

[29:55] Think about how you can grow your business with AI and the same number of people.

[30:00] Pamela Isom: People.

[30:02] So if I go back to kind of thinking through what we just about and what you just shared,

[30:10] I think I would say boardrooms,

[30:16] they have it partially right and they have opportunities to cultivate and make their organizations even stronger and more resilient.

[30:27] And if I were to sum up the things that I heard is we should be asking, boardrooms should be asking, are we ready? Well, how do we know we're ready?

[30:36] Because they're the ones that ask the questions. Right. So how do we know we're ready? Is the workforce being upskilled? If I'm trying to understand if an organization is ready, one of the things I'm looking at is what's our upskilling strategy for our workforce?

[30:52] Right. So I heard you say that.

[30:55] And then who's there to analyze what went wrong? So if the AI tells makes a commitment of a refund or rebate to a customer,

[31:08] who. And that's incorrect.

[31:11] When is it found out? Right. Who's bringing that to our attention?

[31:15] So the board would be overseeing to see to it that should something like that happen,

[31:21] how is that being addressed? That's what I'm hearing you say. So preparing for that transformation.

[31:27] And then I heard you say, are we prepared to scale?

[31:31] So being are we starting in an area and examining the different areas within the organization to ensure that if we are going to deploy it in different areas that it's the right fit?

[31:49] And are we instituting repeatable processes, knowing that every case, particularly when it comes to AI, is different.

[31:57] But so that goes to governance.

[32:00] I'm hearing you say we need good overarching governance, not the burdensome governance, but that oversight. And that's what boardrooms do. And then the last thing I heard you say is keep the humans in the loop, which is throughout the whole process.

[32:15] And then boardrooms don't lose the institutional knowledge. So you're. So the people are the ones that can do the analysis and help us to understand the impacts of some of the decisions that are being considered or made.

[32:32] So basically boardrooms sort of have it, but there's opportunity.

[32:37] Renee Wynn: I think that's right. And it depends on the board. Right. Because it's.

[32:40] Boards are human.

[32:41] Right.

[32:42] They're made up of a group of humans. And how is it that you make decisions? Because this is also a risk to your business. I'm going to tell you a story that happened last week and I'm not going to name the company.

[32:53] So my Internet went out about 4 o' clock on Friday.

[32:56] Good news is I was almost done for the day and it just all of a sudden just went out.

[33:02] Well, you know, kind of worked in it, which makes me a dangerous patient in many ways. And so I went over, I went to my router and I knew this before because the router has gone out before.

[33:12] So I opened the app for the provider, it ran an analysis and said, yes, there is a problem.

[33:19] Pamela Isom: Great.

[33:20] Renee Wynn: And then it elevated me to interact with those chatbots and the chatbot went absolutely awry.

[33:29] Pamela Isom: It.

[33:29] Renee Wynn: It would ask me questions and I would answer more than yes or no because I was trying to escalate. I've already checked,

[33:38] I've already checked the power on in leading into my house.

[33:43] Everything's on. I already checked my router because I knew how to do it. I turned it on and I turned it off and reset. It didn't do anything. So me going to the chat box was really an escalation and it couldn't get escalated.

[33:56] I was just stuck in this. Yes, no. Yes, yes. Oh, I see there's something wrong. Yes. I just used your app to test and it said, there's something wrong. So the app didn't reach into the chatbot program as part of an escalation.

[34:14] It was get to do the same thing over again.

[34:18] Then the chatbot, after 15, 20 minutes go, oh, you need to work with a human.

[34:25] So I go to work with the human.

[34:27] We repeat the process.

[34:30] So now this human, which is still an interactive. I'm not talking, I'm just writing.

[34:35] I'm doing all the same things again.

[34:38] No data went back to the app, no data went to the chatbot. And now I'm at back and forth with a real person.

[34:44] And then while I was going through,

[34:47] could no longer send messages.

[34:49] I could only speak in and send a message because it kept saying message failed.

[34:55] I'm like, okay,

[34:57] now how much time has ticked by? I am now at 45 minutes.

[35:02] And then it says, oh, you need to call a. Get a link. And the link to phone call to make the phone call doesn't work now, mind you, I am like limited.

[35:11] I'm dealing now with having to use 5G near my house. So I have to make sure I'm near a window. Cause there's certain parts of my house where you just can't get data access.

[35:22] So I call the phone number.

[35:24] I'm on hold for an hour and 20 minutes. I'm now in the middle of a dinner party I'm having.

[35:29] And at this point,

[35:30] I'm in. I am so in. Do you know the first thing that they did was let me check your router.

[35:36] Let's check the power coming into your house. And I'm going,

[35:40] it's been checked one, two, three times already.

[35:44] We've checked it for a fourth time.

[35:47] And then I got a ticketed visit.

[35:50] So now in a two and a half hour time frame,

[35:55] at which point I am eating dinner with my guests with on hold. I said, this is now the dinner music.

[36:02] I repeated the process.

[36:04] That is not an experience you want for your customers. Nope, it's not right. Because I could have just hung up and go, we're throwing this out and by Monday I'm going to have a brand new provider.

[36:17] Pamela Isom: You could have. That's what I mean.

[36:19] Like we have all these great capabilities, but you have to test. You have to check it out and you have to test with scenarios that you wouldn't think about. Like not just a happy path, like what's.

[36:33] Yeah,

[36:34] what's, what's wrong.

[36:35] We learned this like when we first started writing software.

[36:40] You know,

[36:41] so what. I don't know what's going on.

[36:44] So this was, this had just, was a system that had just gone rogue.

[36:49] Renee Wynn: It, well, it, it. Right. So you know, then I'm analyzing the whole thing because I'm about, I'm going to send a letter to the company saying you need to fix this.

[36:59] Because the data existed,

[37:01] the data, because I did it in the app of their own app should have fed to the chatbot saying, Let me try one more time and then get you to ticketing to get somebody out here.

[37:14] I didn't need to be on the phone for two and a half hours. I didn't need to talk to somebody.

[37:20] They just needed to acknowledge that it wasn't my router and it wasn't power coming to my house. They didn't have to check the same thing three or four times. Right?

[37:29] Yeah. And it got fixed.

[37:31] Pamela Isom: Great.

[37:32] Renee Wynn: But that's what I'm talking about. If you don't test, you don't scale, you don't have people do the worst you can do. Kick the tires on it. Right. We, you and I were both saying, okay, let's get everybody, let's run the test on it, let's kick the tires.

[37:46] What's the worst it could happen?

[37:48] And if you don't do that, then you've rolled something out to a customer that it's just this shouldn't even have existed.

[37:55] Pamela Isom: Yeah, I agree. I think that that is a problem.

[38:00] And with these,

[38:02] your situation is really interesting.

[38:05] We have so many cases to where things like this are happening, where the AI itself is making promises that don't reflect the company, as you mentioned earlier,

[38:17] or like in this case,

[38:19] like, they really can't blame the AI. Right. This is a whole procedural. And then why repeat the same thing over and over Somewhere someone wasn't sure.

[38:32] I don't know. One of those where you really can't put your finger on what exactly was wrong. You just know didn't. What shouldn't have happened.

[38:39] Right.

[38:40] Renee Wynn: And this is a testing feature to me is if somebody,

[38:46] you know,

[38:48] and I've learned, the next time I'm just calling,

[38:51] I just rather be on hold for an hour and work with someone to run the tests. The two tests,

[38:58] you know, there were two separate tests, run them once and then go to ticketing. That would have made the process half as long because they weren't communicating in the steps in the process.

[39:09] And that's the thing about using these tools,

[39:12] is from a customer facing one, my expectation is if I've done something with your bot,

[39:19] your human sees the record that the bot has already taken me through this. And the human says,

[39:25] I see. We've tried several things. I'm going to try one more thing and we'll get you ticketed.

[39:32] Right. Because they may get a different read, they may have a more sophisticated tool.

[39:37] But that's why boardrooms need to look at readiness for AI.

[39:43] In particular, if it's customer facing,

[39:46] you need to look at it because it is Both a reputational, a financial risk, and it's an operational risk.

[39:52] If this really is the process. And maybe I found the little glitch, right? I could have, because I used to be our major tester at NASA and I would find the glitches.

[40:02] And that was my job, right? It was find where we didn't succeed and make it better.

[40:09] And they just experience risk in three different categories, which could have resulted in the loss of a customer. One customer probably wouldn't have mattered to them. But I've been a customer for 35 years, 37 years.

[40:24] So doesn't that matter?

[40:26] Pamela Isom: It should. It should.

[40:28] Renee Wynn: So that's the bad story. And then there are so many positive stories of how AI has helped in the medical field.

[40:36] If I could, I could bore. Maybe not bore. It's one of my favorite stories about AI and systems integration. If I could share that now, because I want us to go very positive on opportunity and what preparedness means.

[40:51] So while I was at NASA,

[40:54] this happened. And I was so excited to learn about this element of how NASA works for public safety.

[41:03] And this includes AI. It includes some other tools as well,

[41:09] besides the AI, but it's called the Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System.

[41:15] Let me tell you, it's actually named precisely as it works. But most people may not, right? You'd be like, okay, I understand all those words, but really, let's hear about it.

[41:24] Here's what it's about.

[41:26] This was first started for our F16 pilots. We've all heard news stories about pilots,

[41:33] our military pilots, running into mountains.

[41:36] Well, how does a pilot run into a mountain?

[41:39] You look, I'm not a pilot. So you say, how does that happen?

[41:43] And it happens because there's all sorts of things that can happen in a cockpit, especially in a sophisticated jet like our military jets.

[41:53] Well, in this instance,

[41:55] they pass out at G force.

[41:58] They're trained, but passing out is a natural response to a certain G force in these jets. And bam, they run into these mountains.

[42:07] And so NASA, in partnership with the Air Force Research lab,

[42:11] Lockheed Martin,

[42:13] all worked on this Automated MATIC Ground Collision Avoidance system. And the idea was it would take over piloting the jet if the pilot was unresponsive.

[42:26] And that's largely.

[42:28] It could be unresponsive, as in busy with something else.

[42:32] Believe it or not, there's a lot going on in your cockpit.

[42:36] Or they could have passed out and it was still chokes me up is to have heard a pilot speak to the NASA community,

[42:47] come in and speak to the NASA community to say, thank you for this ground collision avoidance system because it saved his life. He had passed out,

[42:58] it had taken over.

[42:59] The jet, avoided a collision.

[43:02] He came to and he landed safely back on the ground.

[43:08] That's. I know.

[43:10] It's just so heartwarming. NASA and the team won a Collier Award, which is this really prestigious award, in this. In that, you know, sort of tech arena, as I'll call it, aeronautics, in that.

[43:23] And that's.

[43:25] That's when AI working with humans and lots of other intricate systems,

[43:31] that is what we can do as we go forward.

[43:35] And this was back in 2018 and 2019. So we can go so much further now with our tools. But I always want to tell this story because a human was in the loop, and a human life is always precious.

[43:50] And in this instance,

[43:52] the military, in partnership figured out a way to keep our military men and women even safer, especially those flying our fighter jets.

[44:05] Pamela Isom: I love that example because you can use AI to keep us safe. You definitely can. So this was a prime example. It's just a really good example. So I'm glad you shared that story.

[44:17] You know,

[44:18] I'm a big fan of our troops, so they're special to me.

[44:23] So thanks for sharing that story.

[44:25] All right, so we are towards the end of our talk. I have one thing that I want to share with you, and that is a conversation that I had not too long ago.

[44:35] I was at a meeting,

[44:37] and former secretary Condoleezza Rice was there.

[44:43] Someone had asked her, does she think that we're moving too fast when it comes to AI or should we slow it down? Are we moving too fast? And so her explanation goes kind of like with what we've been talking about here.

[44:58] We talked about why we need the innovation and the value that it brings and why we also need good governance, but not governance that slows the process down. And that's what she said.

[45:09] She said she thought that we have to go fast, we have to be aggressive about it because we have to keep up as a society.

[45:18] And then. But she said, so I do think that that's what we need, but at the same time.

[45:24] So innovate aggressively,

[45:25] but also guard aggressively. So do both at the same time. Be very innovative with.

[45:32] In both cases, be innovative as far as when it comes to mitigating the risk, understanding them and mitigating the risk,

[45:39] but not so much until we stifle innovation. And on the innovation side,

[45:45] go fast, go hard, but be wise.

[45:48] Right? So use strategy and be wise. And I remember that conversation. If you think about this talk today, that's Kind of what you were saying. And if I were to sum it up, it's kind of what we brought out in this discussion.

[45:58] So I appreciate that. And I remember her discussion, and it really stuck with me because a lot of times people will say it's one or the other,

[46:06] but she said, go fast, go hard.

[46:09] We don't have a choice.

[46:11] Right? But she said, go just as fast as hard on the mitigation side and the defense and offense side. So I feel good about. I walked away feeling good about some of the things that we stand for and some of the things that we're trying to implement and the changes we're trying to make.

[46:26] And I just love your example. So that really helps bring this conversation to a close.

[46:31] I want to know,

[46:33] is there,

[46:34] considering everything that we talked about,

[46:36] the need for upskilling,

[46:38] the value of maintaining the humans in the loop with good examples of how it can be effective and how it can be ineffective. Right. You gave good examples.

[46:48] Is there anything else that you want to share or are there words of wisdoms or call to action?

[46:55] Renee Wynn: So two things that I would say. And back to Condoleezza Rice's comments.

[47:02] The pace at which you can go with change is dictated by the complexity and the risk.

[47:09] The more complex something is,

[47:12] make sure you understand it before you do it. Right? So there's some things that can change fast, and there's some things that need to be much more methodical, which is governance at the right pace.

[47:23] It. It really is a pacing issue. If.

[47:25] If walking is the. What the system can change, can tolerate, then walk.

[47:31] If running is running. And I'm not talking people, I'm talking about the application that you put it in.

[47:38] And then to the individuals who may be feeling threatened by AI or may feel like, well, what does this mean for me?

[47:45] What this means to me is your call to action.

[47:49] Be in charge of your career,

[47:51] be of value.

[47:53] There are classes like you're offering, Pam.

[47:56] There are lots of ways. I love YouTube University.

[48:00] It's like, how do I do this?

[48:02] Make time to make yourself continuously valuable to your boss and your organization.

[48:12] And between the pace of which change and preparedness for that change.

[48:19] Keep the humans in the loop,

[48:21] but be the human that they want in the loop by being of value.

[48:27] Pamela Isom: Yeah, that's good. Be the human that they want in the loop.

[48:30] You couldn't have said that louder, I swear.

[48:35] Yes, I certainly appreciate that. Well, this has been a good discussion. I'm so glad we got a chance to get back together and chat. There's always so much to talk about when it comes to you, and I promise I'm going to follow up with you and see what we can do together outside of.

[48:51] Of of this podcast. I'm not going to be a stranger. So thank you so much for being here.

[48:58] I sincerely appreciate it.

[49:00] Renee Wynn: Oh, thank you so very much. And I'm looking forward to seeing you outside the podcast real soon. You take care. All right.