E059 - AI or Not - LaRhonda Julien and Pamela Isom

Welcome to "AI or Not," the podcast where we explore the intersection of digital transformation and real-world wisdom, hosted by the accomplished Pamela Isom. With over 25 years of experience guiding leaders in corporate, public, and private sectors, Pamela, the CEO and Founder of IsAdvice & Consulting LLC, is a veteran in successfully navigating the complex realms of artificial intelligence, innovation, cyber issues, governance, data management, and ethical decision-making.

Some people in the United States still live without electricity, and once you sit with that fact, it changes how you hear every promise about innovation. We’re joined by LaRhonda Julien, a performance psychologist and long-time electric utility professional, to talk about what it really takes to expand reliable power to tribal lands and other underserved communities through IEEE’s Electrification of Native Lands Task Force. We get specific about the work: relationship-building with tribes, engineering and technical considerations, permitting and regulatory friction, funding gaps, and the training needed to sustain systems long after the initial build.

From there, we zoom in on AI and the electrification journey. We talk about where AI can genuinely help, like simplifying complicated infrastructure and funding applications, and where we need to be cautious, like overtrusting “AI-powered” vendors, failing to do due diligence, and ignoring data integrity. If communities do not understand how these tools work, AI can create fear, confusion, or even open the door to exploitation. The thread running through it all is human in the loop, not as a buzzword, but as a responsibility.

We also connect leadership to human and organizational performance in high-risk utility environments, with practical examples that make safety feel real across your whole life. If you care about ethical AI, energy access, digital transformation, the future of work, or leading people through fast change, this conversation delivers grounded insight and a clear challenge: put people first, and the results follow. 

Transcript

[00:00] Pamela Isom: This podcast is for informational purposes only.

[00:26] Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and not legal advice.

[00:34] Neither health tax, nor professional nor official statements by their organizations.

[00:42] Guest views may not be those of the host.

[00:50] Pamela Isom: Hello and welcome to AI or not, the podcast where business leaders from around the globe share wisdom and insights that are needed Media right now to address issues and guide success in your artificial intelligence and that digital transformation journey.

[01:06] I am Pamela Isom and I am your podcast host.

[01:10] And so we have this really cool and special guest with us today, LaRhonda Julien

[01:16] She is a performance psychologist, a thought leader, a speaker,

[01:21] and in my mind she is a very passionate power and energy leader, so you can see why I have her here.

[01:29] We're both members of ieee,

[01:31] so that's something that we have in common. And then I won't tell you all of it myself. I'll let Larhonda do that. So LaRhonda, welcome to AI Or Not.

[01:41] LaRhonda Julien: Hi Pamela, thank you so much for having me on the show. I greatly appreciate it and thanks so much for your kind words.

[01:50] Pamela Isom: You're very welcome. It's all true.

[01:52] Let's start out by having you tell me more about yourself, your career journey, and when you're thinking about that now,

[02:00] tell me what does that look like today and how does that tie to your role as a performance psychologist?

[02:10] LaRhonda Julien: Absolutely fully loaded questions, so sit back and get ready.

[02:15] You mentioned earlier that we know each other through ieee.

[02:19] IEEE is the largest organization in the world with over 533,000 members for Advancing Technology for Humanity at IEEE.

[02:32] I am Atlanta's Power and Energy Society Chair.

[02:37] I am their Region 3 Project Coordinator, where I get to do really super cool things.

[02:43] I have a couple of current projects going on that your audience might find interesting and maybe we'll get into that later.

[02:50] I am the Electrification of Native Lands Task Force Chair and I look forward to discussing that with you as well. I'm a senior member member and I am a part of HKN Eta Kappa Nu.

[03:05] My journey in the electric utility industry didn't really come out of that childhood dream where everybody's like, oh, I want to be a ballerina or I want to be a firefighter.

[03:19] My journey has really been a journey.

[03:22] My love,

[03:24] absolute love, is for psychology.

[03:28] When I first finished high school because I was really young and naive and very ambitious.

[03:36] I double majored in college in law because my godfather was a lawyer and I worked with him and I also was drawn to that and psychology, which was my passion.

[03:49] Anyone who has ever been to Law school knows that there is a lot of reading associated with law, especially when you first start, start out.

[03:59] And after a while, I had to sit my dreams aside as far as that law was concerned,

[04:07] and really focus on the psychology, which was my passion,

[04:12] so that I could be successful and so that I could bring the most value to my time and to others who were investing in me.

[04:21] Out of school I initially started out working in residential construction. My dad, before he retired, was a master carpenter. And I remember fondly when I was younger,

[04:34] going to his job sites, sitting and watching him work,

[04:38] learning about all the tools of the trade,

[04:42] interacting with his clients.

[04:45] It was a lesson that could only be learned in that way, something that definitely couldn't be passed down through anecdotes.

[04:54] When I got out of school, I had the opportunity to first work with him and then work with another company that was actually based out of Marietta, Georgia. I was in New Orleans at the time,

[05:06] bringing back online 400 units in three of the worst housing developments in the country that had been vacant anywhere from zero to 10 years.

[05:18] It took me two years to do that project.

[05:22] Post that project,

[05:24] I moved on into commercial construction with a company based out of Atlanta that was doing the building of strip malls and schools and restaurants.

[05:36] The next leg of that journey has been in the utility space.

[05:41] Now I work in the electric utility industry.

[05:45] I've been doing it for approximately 20 years now in construction.

[05:50] I work with folks who are out there with contractors building substations and transmission lines and doing environmental compliance.

[05:59] The journey has been a journey,

[06:01] but I wouldn't have had it any other way.

[06:04] Pamela Isom: I think that's fascinating.

[06:05] It's really interesting how you mentioned you enjoyed working in the construction area.

[06:11] And, you know, our parents have great influence on us. So I'm. I'm glad to hear you say that and how that stuck with you. But what was really even more interesting is the psychology and law.

[06:22] I mean, I never put the two together.

[06:25] LaRhonda Julien: I worked with my grandfather.

[06:27] He was the executive director for legal Aid for the state of Louisiana, and they had several satellite offices across the state.

[06:37] I would do things like intake with his clients,

[06:41] going file things at the courthouse,

[06:44] transcribing things that had been dictated by the lawyers.

[06:48] I really enjoyed it, and I was learning so much. And at that age, when I was doing it, I was a sponge. I was absorbing everything,

[06:55] everything.

[06:56] It's a nice compliment, even though you might not necessarily think about putting law and psychology together,

[07:02] because what I had done growing up, helping people,

[07:07] law does that. Law helps people,

[07:10] psychology Helps people. They just help people in different ways.

[07:15] In my mind, it was really the same string, but two different ends of it. Two different ways of getting to the center to accomplish the same goal.

[07:24] Pamela Isom: I love it. Okay, and then so the utility. You landed in utilities and you started to go there.

[07:31] And so basically today you're leading work. So I'm going to ask you a question. It's kind of threefold, right? Because there's IEEE and then there's your Native Lands project that I want you to go into.

[07:48] And then there is utilities.

[07:50] So what I'd like to know is all this is connected. So as you're leading your work in electrification of Native lands,

[07:59] tell me more about your objectives, that connection with IEEE and then the utility connection.

[08:07] LaRhonda Julien: Sure.

[08:08] IEEE has a committee. It's called sesdc,

[08:13] Sustainable Energy Systems for Developing Communities.

[08:17] Underneath that committee there is the Electrification of Native Lands Task Force.

[08:23] The purpose of the task force is to conduct research,

[08:28] engage in what we call practical activities that are aimed at improving electricity. So that goes back to the organization IEEE as well as utility. We want to improve electricity access to homes and businesses and communities that are on tribal lands or in underserved areas.

[08:50] Secondarily,

[08:52] we want to increase awareness and improve education on this topic. Because a lot of people don't understand or they don't know that there are individuals right here in the United States who are living without power,

[09:09] period,

[09:11] full stop.

[09:12] Not they had it. Sometimes they don't have power at all. They're still using kerosene lamps and candles in the United States, in a first world country.

[09:24] So we want to increase their awareness and improve education on this particular topic.

[09:31] And we want to provide some networking opportunities and community building opportunities for the students, the practitioners,

[09:39] the researchers who are all a part of ieee.

[09:43] And then further to the general public,

[09:48] one of the quotes that I love every time I talk about this to share with people is by Jonas Salk. And what Jonas Salk says is our greatest responsibility is to be good ancestors.

[10:04] This particular quote actually encapsulates the.

[10:08] What I perceive what I think of as a timeless truth that speaks to the core of our humanity and our duty to our future generations.

[10:18] And we hope to accomplish that through our Electrification of Native Lands Task Force.

[10:26] We have a few topics that we're focused on as far as that community building and sharing that education with people.

[10:36] And it includes tribal engagement. Because you have to build those relationships with the people who you are trying to help. You need to get their perspective. You need to understand the tribal needs and share with them the benefits of electrification.

[10:54] We also want to take into account those technical and engineering considerations, which is where IEEE absolutely comes in with all of the engineers and and other members.

[11:06] We have to take into account any regulatory, legal and permitting issues.

[11:12] We also have to think about funding because a lot of the tribes and a lot of the people in underserved areas don't have the funds to build out the infrastructure.

[11:21] So how do we solve for that?

[11:23] And finally educating,

[11:26] training the people who are, we are trying to help so that they can sustain whatever systems we bring into place in perpetuity.

[11:37] Pamela Isom: So that's awesome. How can we help?

[11:42] LaRhonda Julien: I have a task force.

[11:45] It is open to anyone, not just IEEE members,

[11:48] who would like to help to move our mission forward.

[11:54] You can reach out to me through LinkedIn or via email. I am happy to connect with anyone there and get them plugged into where we are right now.

[12:07] We are going to be at the IEEE Power and Energy Society General in July. So anyone who's there who would like to connect with me in person, I am happy to do that and bring you up to speed there as well.

[12:21] Those things that I talked about,

[12:23] helping with tribal engagement,

[12:26] helping to come up with a framework that will let the individuals know in those tribal and underserved communities what the benefits are.

[12:37] Anybody who can bring their technical and engineering expertise,

[12:41] anybody who has a government connection who can help with those issues,

[12:46] or anybody who does training,

[12:48] we invite all of those individuals, whether you're a member of IEEE or not,

[12:53] to help to move this initiative forward.

[12:58] Pamela Isom: And what does success look like?

[13:00] LaRhonda Julien: I dream of success,

[13:02] definitely have a vision for it.

[13:06] However,

[13:08] what I have come to realize over the past nine months or so that I have been working to expand the task force is success is going to be ongoing.

[13:24] There's no one picture or one answer to that.

[13:29] Because the problem,

[13:30] because the issue is so complex.

[13:33] We absolutely want to make sure success,

[13:36] that everyone has power, that everyone has reliable and safe power, that everyone has affordable power.

[13:45] That is one picture of success.

[13:47] It doesn't stop there because again,

[13:51] the individuals who have been without power for so long have other issues that we need to address as well.

[13:59] Power is just the beginning of helping to solve them, to bringing them clean running water,

[14:06] to bringing them access to healthcare services,

[14:10] to bringing them Wi fi and Internet service.

[14:15] Those things will help to ensure that they are healthy, educate their children,

[14:20] provide jobs.

[14:22] The picture of success,

[14:24] it's so wide, it's so vast. And I'm excited to be along for the journey and to continue just chipping away and making sure that those individuals have the same access to power, to electricity, to all of those utilities and essential services that you and I do.

[14:47] Pamela Isom: I agree with you. I'm so glad to hear you saying what you're saying and I'm so excited about the things that you're doing.

[14:55] And also I hope that I'll be able to contribute and help make this program even more successful.

[15:02] And then I'm sure we will have some people that are listening that will feel the same way.

[15:07] I do have a question about AI and I'd like to know more more about where you see AI meaningfully supporting this electrification journey and where should we be cautious? So one is the good how can it support it?

[15:23] If you have thoughts there?

[15:25] And then the other area is where should we be cautious?

[15:28] LaRhonda Julien: AI can definitely be of service in support of the electrification of native lands.

[15:36] One of the barriers to electrification is the individuals in the tribal areas or in those underserved areas.

[15:46] The process, the application to even apply to get the infrastructure or to get the funding can be very complicated.

[15:57] AI can help to simplify that and to make it more efficient.

[16:03] The not so good side of that is these same individuals where it can be helping them because they don't necessarily understand it as well as you or I might. They may not trust it,

[16:15] they may be a little bit more apprehensive and they may not approach it or want to use it at all,

[16:21] or it can be used in a way to take advantage of them.

[16:27] Someone might come and say, hey, I've got this company where I'm going to help you do X, Y and Z. And AI is the primary driver in that. And because maybe they've heard a few good things about AI, they jump on board with that not understanding what that looks like.

[16:44] So on the one hand, it can increase efficiency and bring them closer to a point where they can successfully submit applications and understand how to build out their infrastructure. On the other hand,

[16:58] there could be someone or something that's associated with it because let's face it, there's an ethical issue there, as you stated,

[17:07] and we just need to make sure that they are educated of what the pros and the cons are and know when to ask questions about information that they might be receiving or asking to give.

[17:22] Pamela Isom: I agree, that's good insight. I think that data integrity and integrity, just integrity, period,

[17:30] and that human integrity aspect as well needs to be highly considered in a situation like this. But I do see where and understand your perspectives on where AI could be meaningful.

[17:42] That is good so I'm glad to hear that. And that makes me think about another point of the discussion. Right, so.

[17:50] And you were kind of going there, but from your perspective, what are leaders getting? Right, and where are we falling short today?

[17:58] LaRhonda Julien: Leaders,

[18:00] the ones who I have encountered,

[18:02] they've heard of AI.

[18:04] They are very conscious of the different issues associated with cybersecurity and with technology in general.

[18:14] They're doing a lot on the cybersecurity asset portion of it to make sure that people,

[18:22] their employees,

[18:25] know of different scams that might be associated with cyber that could possibly infiltrate their systems and cause issues.

[18:37] We are receiving a lot of training on that. There's a lot of awareness around that.

[18:42] AI as it's coming onto the scene is starting to gain momentum. We're starting to gain a lot of awareness of what it can do and what it can't do,

[18:52] realizing that the human is always going to have to be in the loop.

[18:56] However,

[18:58] the technology part of it is moving so fast, and by the time we learn one thing, something new has come out. People who don't know as much are afraid that they might lose their job because of all of these things that are associated with technology.

[19:17] They're thinking that it's going to take their place.

[19:20] Leaders could do a better job of assuring people that we're always going to need to have that human in the loop.

[19:28] This AI, this technology is going to help us to increase our efficiency, it might help us to improve our processes,

[19:39] it might help us to be a little bit more creative and innovative.

[19:43] But we're still going to need you.

[19:45] You are our most important asset. We value you, the individual as well, and probably more than we value all of these different pieces of technology that are coming onto the scene.

[20:01] So whereas the leaders are embracing technology,

[20:05] where sometimes they fall short is in letting their employees know that you are equally, if not more important.

[20:16] Pamela Isom: And you know that ties to the example that you shared just a moment ago with the electrification journey.

[20:23] This ties to that, right? So in the example that you shared, where,

[20:27] for instance, if a vendor comes along and says, hey, you should really use this,

[20:33] and it hasn't been well thought out,

[20:35] and we become quick to jump on the bandwagon without really seeking and conducting the proper due diligence to ensure that it is going to truly add value and not introduce harms,

[20:49] it just makes me think about that example that you shared, because that's why I tied the two together. Because sometimes we struggle with how to take the human in the loop concept and make it real.

[21:01] And so What I try to do on this show,

[21:03] these episodes is help people see how to make it real and tie it to real examples. Right. So that it's not just some concept that we're studying about. And so I think that you really help bring that point home.

[21:18] LaRhonda Julien: That is where I find that psychology comes into play. I work at an organization that's primarily finance and engineering as a performance psychologist.

[21:32] My degree, specifically my bachelor's and my master's, is in industrial organizational psychology. And people often ask me,

[21:40] what does that mean? What do you do? And how does that apply to construction or engineering?

[21:47] I break it down for them like this.

[21:50] I help people and companies play nice together.

[21:53] Companies,

[21:55] enterprises,

[21:56] business,

[21:58] they're people.

[22:00] The purpose of the company, though,

[22:03] is to make money to bring value to their customers so that they can do so.

[22:08] They also have to keep in mind that they have to provide the same value to their employees.

[22:16] In the industry that I work in,

[22:19] it's a high reliability,

[22:22] high hazard,

[22:23] high risk environment all the time.

[22:26] I focus a lot of my time on human and organizational performance,

[22:31] making sure that my people who I work with always have access to the tools and techniques that they need to ensure that they come home at the end of the day the same way they left that morning.

[22:48] Two eyes, ten fingers, ten toes, two arms, two legs.

[22:53] The human always has to be in the loop.

[22:56] And if you are taking care of your people,

[22:59] if the company is taking care of their people,

[23:01] then they're going to be successful.

[23:03] Pamela Isom: Yeah, no, that's a very eloquent way of putting it.

[23:08] So let me ask you this. So we talked earlier about a myth,

[23:14] and the myth had to do with human and organizational performance.

[23:19] Can you share a little bit more on that?

[23:22] LaRhonda Julien: There are five principles to human and organizational performance.

[23:28] The first one says that humans are fallible and everyone makes mistakes.

[23:32] We understand that. We accept that to be true.

[23:36] We have to be very cautious and careful that we don't give people the idea that mistakes only happen in one environment due to the complexity of that environment.

[23:52] And I'll break that down to you a little bit further.

[23:55] In my organization, where I work,

[23:58] all of the individuals who I work with in my department are field Associates.

[24:03] It's 46 guys and me. They all work in a very disconnected environment.

[24:08] And then there's the office.

[24:10] I have to be able to relate to the people in the office as well as the people who are in the field.

[24:18] That these human and organizational performance techniques don't just apply to the field people because they're working in high voltage situations because they're working in those high hazard situations all the time.

[24:30] It also applies to the people who are in the office.

[24:35] Remember,

[24:36] all humans are fallible. Everyone makes mistake. First principle of human organizational performance.

[24:43] There are mistakes that can happen in the office as well as mistakes that can happen in the field.

[24:49] The consequences are different,

[24:52] but there are still mistakes.

[24:54] When I provide education,

[24:56] when I do training to my office and my field people,

[25:00] I make sure that I provide them with examples of how human and organizational performance can be applied to the office job,

[25:08] to the job that they're doing out in the field,

[25:11] and then I take it a little bit further and talk to them about how it applies at home.

[25:17] Because what I don't want is for you to learn this stuff at work and then go home and make a mistake that could have been prevented because you decided to leave all of that good education and training back at the job.

[25:30] I'll give you one example of each.

[25:33] In the office,

[25:35] one of the tools that you can use if you're working either on a spreadsheet or a Word document is track changes.

[25:44] Track changes is considered a flag or an operational barrier, which is a human and organizational performance tool.

[25:53] How do you use flagging and operational barriers in the field?

[25:56] You might see yellow caution tape.

[26:00] You might see cones.

[26:02] Those are flags and operational barriers in the field.

[26:06] All right, end of the day, let's go home.

[26:08] What flags and operational barriers do you see at home?

[26:12] Well, maybe you have a little baby and you've put those little plastic pieces in the outlets so that they don't stick their fingers or the toys in there to electrocute themselves.

[26:23] Or maybe you have the little gate so that they don't go up or down the stairs. That's a flag and an operational barrier.

[26:30] Showing people how,

[26:32] again, these tools and techniques apply throughout their whole life, not just at work and not just for a certain section of people helps to make it real.

[26:44] The bottom line is we're trying to mitigate risk,

[26:47] we're trying to keep people safe.

[26:49] And that's what it does. That's what human and organizational performance does.

[26:53] Pamela Isom: And it's applicable across the board.

[26:56] LaRhonda Julien: Yes. You just have to understand how to contextualize all of it and how to effectively relay it to everyone at every level.

[27:07] Pamela Isom: I would be one of those who would, not thinking about it, would think human and organizational performance is all about work and not really think about that from at home perspective.

[27:19] So I get what you're saying. And then there's the in the office versus in the field that you differentiated so that I think that was very helpful. Very helpful, very insightful.

[27:30] LaRhonda Julien: Yes.

[27:31] Pamela Isom: Is there anything else you wanted to say on that?

[27:34] LaRhonda Julien: Yes. Another one. Just because we're getting close to summer.

[27:38] This is another example that I sometimes give people because just the name itself makes people think field,

[27:46] which is our pre job safety briefings.

[27:49] They think you can only do a pre job safety briefing in the field. That doesn't apply to me here in the office.

[27:55] Yes, in the field we do pre job safety briefings all the time, every single day in the office. What that can look like is maybe you're getting ready for an audit.

[28:05] Your pre job safety briefing can say,

[28:08] do I have all of my audit documents?

[28:10] When is the audit going to be?

[28:12] Where are we going to have the auditors in place at.

[28:15] At home? What that can look like.

[28:18] You're getting ready to go on summer vacation.

[28:21] Did I purchase my plane ticket? Did I reserve my car? Did I reserve my hotel room?

[28:28] Did I pack my bathing suit? Do I have all of my medications?

[28:32] Making those checklists,

[28:35] doing those pre job safety briefings,

[28:37] thinking about what you need ahead of time and how to mitigate any potential issues that probably be unpleasant in any situation.

[28:47] You're doing a pre job safety briefing. Again, you just have to understand what that tool is and understand what that technique is and be able to share it to communicate it effectively with the receiver.

[29:01] Pamela Isom: That's awesome. That was really clarifying.

[29:04] I appreciate that. That was very helpful. But I have a few final questions.

[29:10] So I usually wrap up first of all by saying, is there anything else that you want to share that you intended to share that you weren't able to get to?

[29:19] As we get to the last part of the discussion, which is your words of wisdom or a call to action.

[29:27] So if there's anything you want to share with us before we get to

[29:30] LaRhonda Julien: that, I could probably take those two questions and wrap those up into one for you.

[29:37] Pamela Isom: Okay.

[29:38] LaRhonda Julien: You talked about leadership and what is it that leaders need to know? Or what is it that they might be missing? And pros and cons surrounding bringing different types of technology into the work environment.

[29:54] We also talk about IEEE and the Electrification of Native Lands Task Force and how my journey actually began years ago.

[30:06] The common thing to me throughout all of those things,

[30:11] leadership. Everybody is a leader.

[30:14] Your leaders are not just your managers or your Directors or your VPs or your CEOs or your CFOs,

[30:21] everyone is a leader.

[30:23] You may not have that title, but you are a leader.

[30:26] And in organizations such as ieee, which is a very heavily Volunteer stacked organization.

[30:36] It gives you the opportunity to hone your leadership skills as a volunteer.

[30:44] There is a quote by Elizabeth Andrew that says volunteers do not necessarily have the time because we all have jobs, right?

[30:51] They just have the heart.

[30:53] Have the heart of a volunteer.

[30:55] Have the heart of a leader.

[30:57] Bring up not just yourself, but those around you so that everyone can be successful.

[31:05] Pamela Isom: Well, that was very inspiring, too. This has been a very inspiring talk today. So I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and to share your perspectives. And I mean, you have such this interesting background.

[31:20] I can see why we connected because we have a lot in common.

[31:23] And your passion really comes through in your discussion and the conversation today.

[31:30] So thank you so much for joining me on the show.

[31:35] And I will make sure to convey the call to action,

[31:40] which is to remember that volunteers do not necessarily have the time, but they have to have the heart.

[31:46] And when you have the heart,

[31:48] that makes space, right? That makes space for reaching out and helping others and just making a difference in your own way.

[31:57] And then you have mentioned something to me about the bottom line.

[32:02] So, like, how does this tie to business leaders who are very focused on the bottom line? Tell me more.

[32:11] LaRhonda Julien: Business leaders can get very caught up in that because again,

[32:15] people are in business to make money.

[32:17] That is the reason why the business is open. That's why we do anything. We're not in a system as we were 100, 200 years ago, where we were bartering to make sure that we had those things that we need.

[32:30] Yes, businesses are in business to make money.

[32:34] However,

[32:35] if you are not taking care of your employees, if you are not putting them first,

[32:42] then you will not be successful.

[32:45] You also want to make sure that you as a business,

[32:50] and even you as an individual have diverse perspectives. And you know how to pivot.

[32:58] When you have diverse perspectives and when you know how to pivot,

[33:02] no matter what challenge comes your way,

[33:05] it could be a lack of human resources, it could be some supply chain issues like we experienced during COVID No matter what that challenge is,

[33:17] if you as the company, if you as the business are taking care of your people, if you as the employee,

[33:23] if you are taking care of yourself, and if you're taking care of those around you,

[33:28] you're going to meet and exceed that bottom line because the business and the individual will be more creative, you'll be more innovative,

[33:38] and you'll all be successful.

[33:40] Pamela Isom: Okay. All right, then.